I really enjoyed the Lakers game the other night. I really do have an appreciation for what they are doing. Shaq is just awesome, the most dominant and best all around player in game. Yes, he is not quite as good as Hakeem in his prime (mainly because of his FT), but the guy is hands down the next best center to play since the late 80's. And he is working long minutes while everybody takes shots at him, hustling at both ends of the court, and pounding the glass relentlessly. He should deserves his due. Also, ever since Kobe has been in the league I have said he is overrated. He might have been overrated the last few years, but he is not now. He makes everyone else on the court look like they just dusted off their sneakers for the first time in a year. If I am trying to build a team around a 2 guard I would have to think very seriously about taking anyone else out there before him--Iverson and Carter included. You combine his offensive game (yes he isn't quite the shooter Iverson is or have quite the power of Carter--but he is darn close) with his rebounding and superior defense than those guys, you might have the best 2 guard in the league now. I have to admit I a bit puzzled by the negative reaction to the Lakers. I despise the Jazz-- after all they knocked us many times and have more than their fair share of whining and obnoxious fans (not referring to you Jenna), I despise the Blazers--now that the ultimate wuss is there how can you not, plus Rasheed is a big talented Jackass too, I despise Seattle--similar fans as the Jazz, Payton is a great player but total punk who used to beat us silly, but I am more or less indifferent to the Lakers. Yes the Lakers or "Lakeshow" gets more than their fair share of media attention, but so what, at least they are more deserving of the attention based on the level of basketball that Jackson has them humming at, say in comparison to the Bricks. Also, Shaq may be a terrible actor, but the guy has always been respectful about Hakeem game and skill. If your worried about someone being mentioned as the equal as Hakeem then be worried if Duncan gets ring #2. It won’t be true (that Duncan is an equal), but some will try to go there. Also, I don't have any personal opinion about Kobe but at least he doesn't act like Pippen, Payton or Wallace, so on a personal level you could do worse. Finally, we have won some of our franchise's biggest playoff series at their expense--if this isn't the best reason to “tolerate” them. Thus as far as I am concerned, if it ain't the Rockets-which it won't be this year, and so I don't have to puke seeing the Jazz, Sonics, Knicks, or Blazers win it, it might as well be the Spurs, Suns, Kings, Heat or the Lakers .
sir scarvajal: I enjoyed your posts in the old houston chronicle forum. That was a great forum with lots of ideas and opinions being shared, until the riff raff came in. I always read your posts in high regard. I agree Shaq is one of the best up and coming stars in the NBA, however, until he wins back-to-back NBA championships, he cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Dream. He has way more talent surrounding him than Dream ever had, therefore, there is NO excuse for the Lakers not to win the title. As I have stated in previous posts, Shaq does not deserve the accolades he is recieving YET. Until he wins a championship,IMO, he is just another very talented NBA player who hasn't figured out how to win.
Sir S: I understand what you are saying. Shaq has certainly eveolved into the premier big man in the game (Tim Duncan may have a better all around game, but Shaq can totally dominate). Being a Barkley fans I disagree with *bob about needed a ring before we can compare Shaq to Dream. A ring does mean alot but it took Dream a few years to get his, just as it took Jordan a while to get his. I also agree with your assesment of Kobe, I didn't like him at all when he came in. BUt I love the way he carries himself. He is very well spoken & I was very surprised when i learned that he knew 4 languages. I still don't like him, but I respect him. Also being a Barkley fan I would much rather see LA get their rings than Portland, or Utah. In fact besides Sacramanto I would consider them the team I will root for the most in the West (since Houston is out of the playoffs realistically). So even if you get ripped by your Shaq-LA comments, remember their are others out here just like you!
<delurking> Okay, I've lived in LA about 3 years now. I hate the Lakers, and LA "fans" who are as fair weather as they come. If I ever wanted to like Bryant, Bob Costas has made me too ill to consider it. Nevermind the fact that the guy has a serious aversion to passing the ball. The 'froed One is nearing complete "untouchable" status and gets way too many free trips to the line in my humble opinion. The jocking he gets from most announcers is sickening and borders on theater of the absurd. Kinda reminds you of someone else? I don't have the quote, but it was from a recent interview where he said something like "pass to the open man? Nah. That's not my game." Luckily, his ego is in good company. Shaq. He never struck me as having a work ethic or a triple digit IQ. I don't think he's an awful human being or anything like that, but he certainly isn't getting my love. With his body and raw talent, he should have been doing this well a long time ago. LA fans are talking about about how committed he is to winning. Committed? Like showing up at the start of the season overweight, when Jackson met with him months before and told him to lose weight to keep his knees from going out? When asked he said "But I lifted weights and bulked up." Yeah Shaq, that's what you need, more bulk. What about his comment on his god-awful free-throws? In disposition, maturity, and play, Shaq if anything, is the anti-Hakeem. Christ, he even went to LSU. From today's LA Times: Said O'Neal: "We knew not to get worried. We knew we had to pick it up at some point in the game, and we did that--a couple guys hit a couple shots." Yeah, once you fouled out and the team had no inside game, and HAD to shoot 3's. Phil. In front of the microphone he can almost always be counted on to be pompous and snide. I don't buy his whole "mystic guru of basketball" thing either. Nor am I impressed by his temper tantrums. In my opinion, he doesn't deserve to carry Rudy's clipboard. Phil in todays paper: "After playing a game to an excited crowd last night, we were somnambulant out there in this game--we were walking wounded in their sleep," Laker Coach Phil Jackson said. Or Phil,could it be that Vancouver played inspired basketball, and that the 7th ranked defense in the NBA provided a challenge to the beloved Fakers? But Thanks for making Dickerson and Harrington look so good, and failing to beat the spread. ;-) Knight...underplayed, underrated Fisher...streaky but seems dedicated Horry...out of respect I will say nothing Fox...has less right to pretend to be a superstar than Mobley Rice...easily blamed when anything goes wrong, since he doesn't rap or have marraige proposals from Bob Costas. Too bad the Heat didn't get him. The Staples Center. Say what you want. It looks like a space station. I like it. Houston sure could use one like it. ;-) The LA fans. Non-existant when the Lakers are losing. The real fans go to Clippers games. I don't laugh at them. That takes heart. Sorry for venting. deji </delurking> [This message has been edited by Deji (edited March 02, 2000).]
Venting is OK. I was hoping to get more other Laker venum out too, to see where it comes from. I still don't get it, it seems more to do with the extra praise they might undully get than their actual actions. I think for too long Rockets fans have worried about respect and what non Rocket fans and media fans think, and to that I say "who cares". We got the hardware in the 90's (other than the Bulls), so who cares about the puff and fluff from the peanut gallery and NBC say. I get my villians from their behavior on the court not based on what others say about them (unduly good or bad). And in some really rare cases off the court behavior comes into play too: e.g., Patrick but-we-spend-a-lot-too Ewing, the Golden State Strangler, and Minnie no-team-with-Avery-will-win-a-title insert-my-big-dumb-foot-in-my-mouth Mouse. As far as your points though, if Shaq and Kobe make you want to vomit, I don't what to think what could come up hearing about the Blazers (if ever a team was full of jerks--Quitten, Wallace, Minnie Mouse), Jazz (say no more) or the Knicks winning a title. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited March 02, 2000).]
Reasons I hate the Lakers: Phil Jackson is a classless, condescending, arrogant jerk. I dislike him more than any player or person in the NBA. When the Bulls happened to lose a game, it was never the opponent outplaying them, it was always the officiating (when they lost a game to the Pacers a few years ago, he made a reference to 'Munich '72'). As if Jordan didn't get enough calls as it is. Have you ever heard Rudy criticize an official? Best winning percentage of all-time my ass. That's real tough to do when you'll only coach the teams with the best talent. People rag on Pippen for not wanting to be the man on a team, and only going to teams with great players already there...well, this guy's the same way. He won't coach a team unless there's great talent already there. As far as I'm concerned, his winning percentage should have an asterisk by it. Does anybody think for one second that he would've coached the U.S. team when they announced that NBA players would not be participating? He would've been out of there in a second. Rudy looked forward to it. The guy's a joke. If you're such a good coach, take a team with less talent and make them into winners. Oh, never mind, that might tarnish your winning percentage. I don't know that there are many other reasons, other than Shaq being an incoherent fool who would rather sing rap 'music' or make 'movies' than work on his game. Does anybody want this guy ending up as the class of the league? Who cares if he respects Hakeem...that should be the norm, not an exception.
On the court Shaq, and Kobe for that matter, are playing very hard all over the court. I respect the way they are playing. The fact Shaq can't act and can't sign doesn't matter one iota to me because I can just turn the channel in the offseason (same went for Jordon too, though I find him even worse in this regard). And I think the argument that Shaq doesn't work on his game is bull, he has steadily improved his conditioning and skills. Not many people knock many of the other great big men (e.g., Russell or Wilt) that much because of their bad FT shooting, or blamed it on their lack of effort. Further, both Shaq and Kobe carry themselves much better than most of their chief competitors for this years ring (Pippen/Wallace, Spree/Ewing, Mourning, Malone). As far as Phil J., I just disagree. Yes he had great talent, but he did a great job at keeping his team consistently performering at a high level (regular and post season records). If he gets a ring this year with the Lakers it will show he was able to get the teams over the hump when previous coaches couldn't (Collins, Harris, Rambis). Further, when many players left his team--e.g., Kerr, Caffey, Pippen, Grant, Rodman--it was really apparent he got the absolute most out of these guys. The guy may be arrogant, but man can he coach. Not to get off subject here but the fact Rudy couldn't even make the Finals with 3 Hall of Famers on his team for the better part of 96-99 and only went to the Finals twice with having the best player in the West for 10 or so years to me proves he is not the coaching equal of Jackson. He may be a nicer guy and less arrogant, and the guy right now I want as the Rockets coach, but in terms of X's and O's and keeping their teams focused on the task at hand (steadily winning) their is no comparison. As far as Shaq being the equal of Hakeem, ring or no ring, I agree he isn't. Shaq is better than Robinson, Ewing, Mourning or Duncan is or probably will be however (though maybe Duncan could be better). [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited March 02, 2000).]
The Jazz and all their freakin fans suck. I dont know why you all have to suck up to Jenna. I dont care how hot she is, if she is a fan of those dirty (guys) called Sloan, Malone, and Stockton then well read my comment on Jazz fans. I hate the damn Lakers cause NBC has nothing better to do than show the Lakers every single time. I cant stand Phony Jackson either. And another reason I despise the Lakers is because I dont know where Ahmad Rashads lips end and Kobe's ass begins. And screw the JailBlazers and that whining (whiner) they have. Admin note: nothing personal. Just try to keep it cleaner. Thanks. [This message has been edited by Administrator (edited March 03, 2000).]
Rockets03, grow up. I don't think any of us suck up to Jenna. In fact at lot of the people here have continuously put her down. Admittedly, I hate the Jazz as much as the next Rockets fan, but I still like Jenna. She's a great poster and it has nothing to do with how she looks. Hell, i don't have the slightest idea how she looks. She has 20 times the intelligence and maturity that you do, so get over it. Lord Tree
ROckets03, Lord Tree hit the nail on the head. Nobody I know sucks up to Jenna, but I don't demonize her because she has loyalty to Karl Malone. Her posts are infinitely more informative and articulate than the drivel you just produced. You just confirmed a major reason I think for the anti-Laker sentiment, jealousy over media attention. Try to get over it. Judge your team and your opponents based on their actions, not hype and hearsay. While the BBS isn’t the best place for social commentary, this is a pretty good way to live life too.
Your post showed immaturity (not saying you are, maybe you had a knee-jerk reaction and posted without thinking through) because: 1) you must not have read my post thoroughly before responding. You suggested I am soft of Jenna or Jazz fans after I stated in the onset they have more than their fair share of totally obnoxious whiner types, and this is a good reason to rout against them. If I miss-read your intent here (it wasn't about my post specifically) my mistake about that. Still, I don't think it is OK to lump Jenna in the obnoxious Jazz fan group (I haven't met her so I can't say, but I kind of doubt she is). If you have met her (I really doubt this too) and can say otherwise my mistake again. Otherwise, tone it down with the personal shots. 2) This one isn't as big a deal. I think these comments are shortsided (should base your negative reactions about the players behaviors, not the media's drooling response to them), but I don't have much of a problem with what you said. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited March 03, 2000).]
Scarvy -- Firstly, I never said Jackson wasn't a good coach. What you can't deny, though, is he's always had the best talent at his disposal (the best player in the league is usually going to win). You mention his ability to "get teams over the hump", but you don't consider the obvious factor of players simply eventually maturing, and that he may have just taken over those teams at the right time. I mean, cmon, eventually Shaq and Jordan were going to figure out how to win...it was inevitable. Although Rudy has not performed well with exceptional talent, he's proven he can do wonders with less-talented teams. Jackson has only shown that he can win with good teams. Other coaches have done the same, but didn't excel with less talent (Chuck Daly comes to mind, Pat Riley even has considerably more talent now than Rudy did in '94). As far as Shaq and Kobe "playing hard" on the court, lots of guys do that. Sprewell and Vernon Maxwell come to mind. We all don't have to like everybody. Two guys undeservably being anointed as media darlings is a perfectly legitimate reason to dislike them, IMO. I don't see what's wrong with wanting more-deserving players to achieve more than they. As far as Wilt and Russell not being ripped for their free-throw shooting, the obvious difference there is those guys won championships, while Shaq has not. When you win a ring, it's hard to come up with things to critique. Also, please explain what you have against Patrick Ewing. As far as I'm concerned, the guy is a warrior. If Hakeem had his desire, we'd probably be in the playoff hunt right now. If you're speaking of the labor dispute, as far as I'm concerned, that's basically politics and his views shouldn't be held against him (it's very possible I don't even know what you're speaking of when referring to him). Lastly, I know I'm in the minority, but Karl Malone has done nothing to deserve the wrath that you put out against him. Most people judge him by what they perceive as illegal play. If it was so illegal, the league would've caught on by now. After all, what good does it do the NBA to prop up Utah and Karl Malone. To think that you put him in the same category as Sprewell is a little puzzling. It seems you're no worse than those who dislike Kobe and Shaq for being media darlings. While we're at it, what's wrong with Alonzo Mourning? The guy's clearly not as athletically gifted as many of the youngsters out there today, but achieves mostly because of hard work. Much respect Sir. [This message has been edited by TheFreak (edited March 06, 2000).]
props to sir scarvajal. great post. I too read the Lakers-bashing threads with mixed feelings. The NBA-player that made me fall in love with basketball was Magic Johnson. Being from the Netherlands I never got to see too many NBA-games but the weekly broadcasting of NBA-Action made me believe "Showtime" was the way NBA-basketball was played: entertaining, fast, competitive and above all: fun. When Magic left and the team of old started to dismantle I still had a crush on that yellow-gold uniform. I liked Eddie Jones, Nick van Exel, Worthy, Vlade and even Campbell, because they were playing the same kind of bball as Magic and his team. Ofcourse it wasn´t close to Showtime but it was the attitude i liked. As the Lakers struggled, my basketball-eye caught some plays and highlights of Hakeem. Blocking shots, slamming dunks, standing tall. I routed for them in 93 when they lost to Payton and Kemp. But I knew then there was something special between Houston and I. Even during the golden years of Houston the corner of my eye saw what the Lakers were doing, who they traded, how they lost. Then Shaq came, Kobe came, Rice came. Talentwise they have the best starting five in the league but they couldn´t capitalize their wealth and became the object of mockery and insults. "Selfish, heartless, big money-making, overpaid players." Questioning someones intelligence, heart, passion while not knowing the person is, imho, not hte right way to go. But judging someone, not knowing him or her, is just wrong. (like some of us have been doing to hakeem now he is struggling to find his game) The arguments I read here and elsewhere of hating Shaq, Kobe and the Lakers have nothing to do with basketball. For instance someone said: "I hate the damn Lakers cause NBC has nothing better to do than show the Lakers every single time." Or: "And another reason I despise the Lakers is because I dont know where Ahmad Rashads lips end and Kobe's ass begins." How can you hate a player because of the actions of an organisation or person, over which the player itself has no control? If I suck up to you, does that make you a bad person? No, maybe there is something wrong with me instead. And don´t forget the player you see on the basketballcourt is but a fraction of the personality of the human being. Don´t throw with words like hat and despise too much, please. Whow, sorry for the long post. just felt like i had to say something.
Freak, thanks for your response. I really don't dislike Ewing or Mourning that much. I think Ewing's comment "but we spend a lot of money too" was mostly laughable but it still showed his disconnect with the world. Not that most players don't feel that way, but he went the extra mile of revealing it by saying it as a union rep no less. No big deal, but it added a little contempt for him in my eyes (Ewing has also been a pain in the a** as far as the boycott/freeze out or whatever it was). For Zo, he plays hard, though he throws some cheap elbows here and there. Malone throws even more cheap elbows (Isiah, D-Rob, others have been injured recipients) and has the gall to flop like a toddler when touched at the other end, neither of which to me is how you should play the game. I do respect both Zo and Malone's effort they put out there, just not always their style, especially the Mailman. Thus it is not hard to enjoy them losing. I don't have a problem with disliking the Lakers because of perceived undeserved attention. But when guys "hate" them for it and make ridiculously unbalanced statements and opinions about them, I will try to call it out (not saying you do). I just happen to dislike the Blazers, Jazz, Sonics or Knicks much worse than other contenders such as the Lakers or say SA (see above), it is others prerogative to see it differently. As for Shaq and Kobe getting undeserved attention, maybe a little. But they are two guys leading a team of average players at best (except maybe Rice too) to be the best in the NBA (say compare to Portland or Indy, who are far superior in all other positions and in depth). That is a testament to how good these two players are on both sides of the ball, IMHO. As for Jackson, Harris and Rambis had the same team in LA (maybe an even better one with Jones and Campbell), and Hill had a more talented team in Orlando, and they could never finish the job. If Phil gets these Lakers over the hump, there is no question in my mind he is the best coach around--Riley and Rudy included. Rudy does seem to be able to get the most out of young players and lesser players. I do think he is the right guy for the job right now. If you asked me one year ago I said he wasn't the right guy because he had like 4 years with three Hall-of-Famers and couldn't do squat in the regular season or playoffs. As you say having the best player is most important, but Rudy also had the best player in the west for the most part of the 90’s and only reached 2 NBA finals, where as Phil had the best player in the East and went to 6 finals (maybe more if MJ didn’t take on a new hobby because he got in hot water in his other one [gambling]). At the time I thought new blood was needed and still believe I might have been right. Rudy even said a few times (after another 4QC--4th quarter collapse) that he didn't have any idea what to do. I can’t see Phil J or Riley doing nothing in the circumstance, whether it was having player read a book on visualization, practice yoga or busting the players a**es in practices (I think you can figure out which coach would do what—but they all would do something ). Rudy just looked tired then and the players didn't seem to be responding or didn’t have anything to respond to. But since the team is new and players mostly young, everything is changed so I think it is a good idea to keep the stability in the coach. Besides Rudy and the players seem to be having fun and look fresh.
I think that Shaq is a hell of a player. But, when you talk about him being compared to Dream you have to consider that Dreams defense was not only great, it was legendary. Dream was the first big man to go and guard any player, any time, in any game and still get back under the basket to block a shot. All in one sequence. How many times did you see Dream be on one side of the floor and out of no where end up on the other side to block a shot or just alter it. Remember what players said about Dream in his prime? They said he was two people on the floor. There was Hakeem. Then there was Olajuwon. That is the utmost respect if you ask me. On offense, there was no equal with the variety of moves this man has. Its the respect of the players that you want. And when players say stuff like "he has moves on top of moves on top of moves" that is the utmost respect you can ask for. Dream paved the way for what Garnett, Duncan and Odom do now and will eventually do in the future. He was the prototype. Shaq has 5 moves at best. And he still has not developed a go-to move to get a shot off during crunch time. If we compare Shaq to Dream, then in a couple of years we are going to have to compare Kobe to MJ. And that would be totally ridiculous. And one more thing. I have the utmost respect for Pat Riley. But to say that Alonzo Mourning is the best defensive center since Bill Russell is like saying Kerry Wood is the best strike out pitcher since Nolan Ryan. That was dummer than Shaq saying that he won on all levels except college and pros. I guess Riley forgot about 1994 already. ------------------ Live Rocketball. Breathe Rocketball. Die with Rocketball. [This message has been edited by Almu (edited March 07, 2000).]
I personally have never seen Shaq race from one end of the court to the other to block a Kevin Johnson layup from behind as Dream did in a playoff series.
