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There's no Crying in Politics

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by pgabriel, Jan 10, 2008.

  1. bnb

    bnb Member

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    Hillary didn't bawl like Tony Romo after fumbling the snap against Seattle last year. She teared up a bit -- BUT SO WHAT.

    Too many bloggers. Too much time on their hands. Was it real? Then she's weak. WEAK I TELL YOU. Just like a girl. But it was probably faked. For sure. Crocodile tears -- all calculated to gain her support. Just like she rigged the vote in NH -- except she didn't...but could have...and it's something she would do....even though it's clear she didn't...

    And the Iron My Shirt sign? I assumed it was photoshopped. But assuming it's real....we got Bat's speculating it was a plant???? Where's the outrage? Would we be OK with some moran holding a "Get me some fried chicken" sign at a Barak speach. Of course that sign would probably be a Hillary plant too.

    Who needs the swifties these days...Our hardcore Dem supporters are doing a better job.
     
  2. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    I don't think it was a plant, bnb. I just find that far more likely than the idea that Hillary faked tearing up. I also think it's stupid to criticize her for that. She's a human person with emotions. I want a president that cries.

    That said, she was crying about her own career. I understand it and I find it compelling -- after all, she's worked all her life for this (as have the others) and she saw it slipping away. It was bunk though that she tried to couch that in concern for the country. That is crap. She knows and Bill knows that Obama is neither dangerously inexperienced nor wrong on the issues (they agree on freaking everything) but they continue to push that meme as it is their best path to victory. Obama could easily push hard the idea that Hillary is such a divisive figure, disliked by so many, that the real "roll of the dice" would be nominating her to face a relatively popular figure like McCain. And maybe now he will. But if he does it's because they went dirty first.

    It's ironic to me that a Hillary supporter would be the one decrying nasty inter-party politics. When it comes to that junk, there is nobody nastier than the Clintons. They did it in 92 too, which is why I never voted for him.

    But I have no problem with Hillary crying, I was actually moved by it. And I was moved and encouraged by women rallying to her. It's not a given that women will support a woman for president -- in fact, it's almost counter intuitive unfortunately. And in that way I celebrate her victory in NH.

    I think it is far past time we had a woman president and if we didn't have such an excellent opportunity in Obama to move past the utterly cynical food fights of the last decades I'd probably have started the campaign supporting her (Bill Clinton's "fairy tale" BS in which he took Obama's Iraq record entirely out of context, turning it into the opposite of itself was particularly dishonest). But we do. And Hillary proved in NH that, while she's heard the voters on some ambiguous notion of 'change,' she has no idea that the most profound change Obama represents is the end of dishonest nastiness in political campaigns. She willfully misled voters in NH and Bill lied even more, just to get a win. I'm sick of that junk. And, as a result of it, she won't get my vote in this primary even if Obama drops out. I'd probably vote for her in the general but she wouldn't get my money, my work or my enthusiasm. And in a year that I was moved to make my first ever cash donation to a political campaign that would be a crying shame.
     
  3. DoitDickau

    DoitDickau Member

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    I generally agree with that. What i would argue is that she responded in two very distinct way to criticisms/attacks/falling numbers.

    One was a very assertive, almost angry, response during the debates about how she was an agent of change for 35 years, and how she was experienced and ready, etc. I don't know how voters actually felt (it would be interesting to see some studies/research on this) but the commentators/talking heads didn't react positives towards this approach.

    The other response was a much more feminine kind of response which was utilized during the debates when she said "that hurt my feelings" to the likability question. This line of response can also be seen in the crying episode. I think this kind of humanized her with a lot of people, who see gender and gender norms in a certain way.

    Like i said, i dont' know how voters felt, but commentators seem to think that it was the more feminine responses to her political crisis, rather than the more assertive, and i'd argue much more traditionally masculine, responses, were the pivotal points in last week's campaign. This seems to be consistent with what we'd see if these theories on women candidates, voting, and gender norms is correct.
     
  4. bnb

    bnb Member

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    Bats...you've been around politics long enough to know that candidates do express disappointment when they suffer an unexpected defeat. ANd her campaign has pretty much imploded at the worst moment. (or 'best' I suppose -- depending on your slant). The pundits said she would self-destruct over a year ago...but she did amazingly well until just recently

    And of course it was about her career and aspirations. As it is with all of us. She didn't 'couch' that with concern for the country. She thinks she can do the best job. Otherwise she wouldn't run. Barak thinks his vision is best -- and I expect the other candidates believe in their own capacities too.

    And Barak's weakness IS his inexperience. He's 46. She was involved in politics before he went to grade school. Hell...McCain was probably drawing a government pension before Barak was out of diapers. Maybe that's a plus for Obama? Or maybe he'll be an 'outsider' like Carter. Or suffer the same naivity Hillary did when she thought she could waltz in a make heathcare reforms as first lady -- when she was his age ;). That's Barak's wild card. And it will be tested over a 9 month campaign. The Hillary mud has been flying for over a decade. Barak doesn't have to play the 'divisive' card -- everyone else has been doing it already. So her campaign sees her stength as the abilty to get things done. Of course that's what they concentrate on.

    I didn't like when her campaign got dirty. I think it hurt her more then helped and gave people comfort in embracing the stereotypes they wanted to believe. I think she should mention her strenghts without comparing them to Barak. But, alas, they didn't consult me.

    I do think Barak is getting the Reggie Bush treatment. Kudo's to whoever made that comparison. Barak wouldn't get dirty -- but if he does it's because she did first? Get real. If she gains support it's because women relate to a tear? Well what about her support throughout the year? Her support is all about the 'machine' behind her - like the hundreds of thousands of first time voters aren't being mobilized by an equally effective 'machine.' And her support is really a proxy for Bill? Karl Rove would applaud this stuff. And, of course the best one is that all her votes are cynically strategic and calculated. She has articulated more specifics then any candidate I can remember. She has not been afraid to stray from the party line to do what she thought was best for the country. (i'm referring to her vote on Iran -- where the politically expedient action would have been to vote against -- or abstain. She voted 'for' which is in line with her non-isolationist leanings (a stance you may, or may not agree with)-- but certainly hurtful politically in many democrat circles. She's also defended and took responsibility for her original Iraq vote rather then claiming she was misled by Bush. I'm not saying these votes were necessarily right -- just that they're not consistent with the charge that everything is calculated for her own advancement).

    And it's not nasty-intra party politics I'm decrying. I'm decrying the character assassinations and innuendo that has become too common among the pundits and democrats. And from people who decry this crap when it's not them dishing it out. Many of them posting here. Deck -- our local women's libber -- was curiously silent on the Iron my Shirt poster. Unless he thought it was a photoshop as I did.

    So you don't think the sign was a plant? Then why did you bring it up? How's that different then asking whether knowing about fathering a black baby would influence a vote, and then claiming innocence because you were just making a hypothetical.

    That's not to say I dislike Barak. I think he's an excellent candidate. I happen to think Hillary would be a better president, but I would be ecstatic over an Obama win. In fact...I was hoping he'd win in 2016!
     
  5. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    I made a post in another thread about Hillary's emotion. It mirrored batman's post here in sentiment.

    She's someone who's ambitious beyond belief. Prior to Iowa it looked like she was going to achieve her dream. She could taste it. Then at the moment of the outburst it looked something that she had been so close to was falling apart, and fading away before her eyes.

    The emotion was real, but it was born of personal ambition, and not out of concern for America sliding back.
     
  6. Faos

    Faos Member

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    Strong language

    <object width="464" height="388" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000"><param name="movie" value="http://www2.funnyordie.com/public/flash/fodplayer.swf?1200035364" /><param name="flashvars" value="key=44b7a2ca2e" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed width="464" height="388" flashvars="key=44b7a2ca2e" allowfullscreen="true" quality="high" src="http://www2.funnyordie.com/public/flash/fodplayer.swf?1200035364" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed></object><noscript><a href="http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/44b7a2ca2e">David Lynch on Hillary Crying</a> on <a href="http://www.funnyordie.com/">FunnyOrDie.com</a></noscript>
     
  7. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    What's fake is the assumption that she was welling up for the American people.
     
  8. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    I prefer my candidates to scream a list of states, faster and faster, building to a crescendo of a loud, cowboy-meth-overdose version of "Heeeyaaaawwwww!"

    If she does that, she's got my vote.
     
  9. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    I challenge this assertion -- an assertion that quite a few barack hussein obama supporters have been tossing around. Please tell me how nominating Obama -- a polician with very liberal policy positions -- moves us past gridlock? How is this an excellent opportunity to stop partisan fighting? I hear this repeated over and over, but that alone does not make it true. This Obama love fest has really led to some ridiculous false hope, and Bats, your statement is reflective of that. I am in touch with many staunch Republicans and let me tell you, they will not lay down on their policy positions if Obama, or any other lib, is in office. Forget about that. The stakes are too high. You think McCain is going to magically turn his stance on Iraq around on a dime just b/c Obama is pres? HA! Give me a break. If you think McCain or other Republicans are going to wake up one day and magically support the libs' policy of surrendering in Iraq, then you are off your rocker. You can make the same case for homeland security, immigration, tax policy, energy development, etc.

    THIS IS ALL A FAIRY TALE. Obama is no more of an agent of change than Hillary. You yourself said they have identical policy positions(!). Is Obama going to persuade others because of his sweet words and Morgan Freeman-esque voice? Please, that's stupid.
     
  10. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    You've been told this before. If only you were really interested in the answer rather than just arguing for argument's sake.

    Obama has a record of moving past gridlock and getting things done. Even his opponents have testified about his ability to work with opposing sides and get things done.

    The process with which he intends to work has also been explained to you. But it is something that shows that his process of working to get things passed is much more important than his own stance.
     
  11. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    WHAT HAPPEN!?!?!

    [​IMG] ... [​IMG] ... [​IMG]

    We will have to report your latest blaspheme to your many staunch Republican friends.
     

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