"There are little pockets of resistance." JVG Comments

Like I said before, even if any of you agree with that tactic, it's way to early to give up on a more civil approach.

 

personally, i see JVG's tactic as a no lose situation. taking a look at our roster, and thinking about what we need in the future, i think we actually have excess parts. i'm of the opinion that we only need a) dominant post play; b) perimeter scoring threat (s); and (c) great role players.

a) is fulfilled by yao ming.
b) is fulfilled by cat mobley & steve francis
c) is fulfilled by the griffs, pike, boki & motay


if francis reacts positively to JVG's criticism, we're set. if he doesn't we still have the necessary components of a contending team, plus we'd have a very tradeable steve francis that could return us a very high caliber player(s).

my personal expectation is that SF will continue to bristle. dude's a rockhead on the court (no offense to the poster ). it is not lack of effort. it is, really, to me a matter of one thing:

steve francis passes to people when it is convenient to him. great playmakers pass to people when it is convenient to the other player...aka "getting the ball to them in their comfort zone(s)". everone talks about it not being steve's fault that his teammates miss shots. whatever. what? jason kidd's teammates don't miss shots? stockton's teammates didn't miss shots? the reality is that those guys simply get their players the ball in more advantageous positions more often than steve does. period.

 

Steve was playing an excellent selfish game.

 

first of all, I'm not a Steve apologist or anything, and I'm as scared about the Steve-being-hard-headed/dumb-thing as much as everyone else, but..

One thing that people tend to forget is that Steve (and athletes in general) say things once, and they're quoted (or misquoted) everywhere. People don't ever think about the fact that, anyone posting on a message board has one advantage over someone giving a live interview after a game- time. We can think about our responses before we put them out there. Some of us don't use that luxury (not going to name any names here), but at least we have it.

As everyone who's seen interviews with him knows, Steve isn't the best at interpersonal communication, so let's think about giving him at least some real games before we say he'll never "get it".
It's entirely possible that Steve could have meant:

"I've been playing the same way for 5 years, so it's hard if people (like those on cc.net) expect me to change overnight. But I'm trying."

If he had said that, everyone would probably be fine with it. I'll admit, my first thought was "he doesn't get it!" But I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt a little longer. Even if he really doesn't "get it", is it that surprising? He's been with JVG for not long now at all, did anyone really expect it to be like flipping a switch?

I know, we don't want to give him excuses, etc.. but the realities are:

1. we will not be trading him any time soon.
2. If we do trade him, it won't be for Paul Pierce, Jermaine O'neal, etc.. It will be for less than he's worth. That's the way it is.

so we might as well wait at least until the games actually count before making snap judgements.

That being said, I know it's a message board and all, but damn, people. How would you like to have every thing you said hyper analyzed to the nth degree? I know, I know- he's making millions, so we have the right. I'm just trying to present a different perspective.

 

Ill-Skillz,


have you considered the possibility that this is JVG's final blow? weren't all the efforts rudy put into changing steve considered blows? at some point, you have to say "put up or shut up" and it looks like that's what JVG's telling steve. no more mollycoddling, either you play the right way, or i'm letting the world know about it...and you will be traded.

what other tactics might you suggest for curbing steve's ways?

i'm sure the coaches have told him about his tactics many times over, with no results. and the myopic steve fans diligently turn to stevie-defense-response-#1: "20-6-6. what more do you want?" well, what i want is for him to play the damn game right. make your teammates better, damnit! find out where and when yao, cato, moochie, cuttino, boki, eddie, and motay like to receive the ball and get it to them then! that's what great playmakers do. as of now steve francis is an above average scorer and a horrible playmaker.

 

You did not address my post about going in tough early (my opinion) or later, if necessary (your opinion). I think I shred your analogy to pieces...

 

That is absolutely correct, IMO, and I have made that point several times. It is the tendancy of a team's fans to overrate their players when it comes to trade value to begin with, but when you are trading a player because of personality problems, you are ususally lucky to get fifty cents on the dollar.

 

true. of course, we could always pull off a "disgruntled player for disgruntled player" trade. in fact, i'd have my eyes and ears wide open this season for other "franchise players" that may have worn out their welcome in their respective cities. jermaine o'neal's a candidate. jalen rose (+ jamal crawford) are candidates as well.

but, thoughts of mcgrady, kobe, dirk, et al are pipe dreams.

 

Yao is the man, Steve can see it coming, he is resisting the change.

I would bench him when he is not listening, and trade him if he gets to be a problem.

Steve gets by on athleticism, and those players shelf life is a LOT shorter then the guy who gets by on brains AND athleticism.

Look at Stockton...and Mark Jackson.....

If Steve has not made significant progress by the trading deadline...deal him.

DD

 

It might help if guys could hit their shot. Boki and Eddie (5-21), Mooch has completely lost his shot, Cato can only do the ally-oop and if you're suggesting to pass him the ball down low, we've all seen what happens. I agree that Steve may not be the best playmaker, but WE HAVE TO MAKE SHOTS TO MAKE ASSISTS.

YA'LL ARE SO QUICK TO POINT FINGERS WHEN THINGS AREN'T WORKING. WHAT HAPPENED TO TEAM WINS AND TEAM LOSSES.

TWO PEOPLE NEED TO WORK FOR AN ASSIST, A PASSER AND A SHOOTER, IF ONLY ONE WORKS, YOU GET NOTHING.

WE SHOT THE BALL SO HORRIBLY LAST SEASON, WE BRING IN A 3-POINT SPECIALIST IN PIKE, TWO MID-RANGE SHOOTERS IN A. GRIFFIN AND JACKSON, BROUGHT IN A NEW COACH. WE HAVE A 2ND YEAR PHENOM IN YAO, AN ALL-STAR PG THAT WANTS TO WIN. ALL OF THIS AND YA'LL ARE GIVING UP AFTER 4 PRESEASON GAMES!! I SAY IT ONCE AGAIN: BELIEVE!!

This isn't aimed at Verse, but I used his quote to emphasize someting. Been a fan for 20 years and this is the most excited I've ever been about our team, the Houston Rockets can be great, but they need more than 4 preseason games to prove it.

 

Not to be condescending but I don't think that is Steve's game. I know for a fact that Rudy tried to get Steve to be more of a team player and he did improve in that area but still nowhere near enough. ( He actually looks worst now than he did last year) He is never going to be a Stockton he is not even going to be a Baron Davis. He is closer to an Alen Iverson type than anything but he is not as explosive.

Just for the record I was completely against firing Rudy and didnot believe Jeff was the answer. But while many of the Van Gundy supporters are quiet now because of the Rockets preseason doldrums I am impressed moreso than I expected. He is not going to take any crap from this team and frankly I think a few players on this team needed Rudy to be more like that.

Don't get me wrong I know Rudy was weary of Francis and Cuttino's 1 on 1 play and Moochies dribblemania and continually coached on better options. Hell Cat was in the doghouse for his selfish play. But these guys while showing slight signs of improvement just didn't get it. Still there is only so much discipline that will work with the Francis's and Iverson's in the league. And in the end Francis may be a superiorly gifted athlete but he is just not the smartest ball player and he may never be.

So where does that leave us. Well I definitely think Cat and Francis can not co-exist on the court together for long minutes. Like many others have said they are the same type of players and when they have the ball the offense becomes stagnant. They are momentum killers. I love the way Jackson and Yao and to a lesser degree Boki and even Griffin at times move the ball around. But when Francis, Cat and Moochie have the ball for the most part we look bad.

I do find it amusing how Steve every year talks about wanting so desperately to make the playoffs. And how he is not going to make any excuses and will do whatever it takes. And what it takes more than anything is for Steve to play the game smarter. For Francis to move the ball around until the team finds the open man and the best opportunity to score. Sure some occasional one on one play is good especially when you have an athlete who is as talented as Francis. But the game is a team game and no one player ever one a championship. Not even MJ.

So the answer to the problemis; Move cat to 6th man or trade him; limit Francis's pg minutes and play him more at the two; bench Moochie for Wilks or someone. Oh and do all of this while not alienating your players. JVG has his hands full. But he looks to be up for the task better than I had imagined. And it also appears that Rudy did a better job with this team than a lot of you others would ever want to admit to.

 

Thanks JeffB,

If your quote is correct and complete, it does seems to me that JVG is stating that the entire team is out of sync. Not that he is singling Steve out, but to me he is saying that since the team is not in sync that it makes Steve go for the 'home run'.

Also it seems to me that Steve was stressing the 'playing hard' part and not him going 'one on one'. I think a lot of posters here are reading things into that statement that may not be there.

Anyway, it probably will still take some time for the team to adjust to what JVG wants to do. However, I am the patient type. For me, it does not matter how things are right now, but if things seem to be improving.

Anyway, sorry to interrupt the Steve bashing...

 

rudy took this band of misfits and got good results out of them. no questioning that.


unfortunately, rudy is also the one that put this band of misfits together in the first place. at maximum output, i don't think this team - as rudy put it together - could win more than 46-48 games and be out in the 1st round of the playoffs. the additions of JJ, pike, and AGriff will help to give this team some direction, leadership, and balance on the court. however, the key components (yao, steve, mobes) look to be square pegs in round holes. JVG, to me, has already noticed this and has asked the square pegs (steve, for one) to mold their edges or find themselves on a different game board.

i don't know if steve is capable of doing that, since leopards can't change their spots; however if he can - and the rockets undoubtedly play better because of it - he will deserve MUCH props...even MVP consideration. his numbers will be the same, but the important letters (W's and L's) will change. yao will become more of a weapon on the court, and everyone will know that steve francis has matured and become a complete player.

like i said, i don't think he can. players blessed with that level of physical ability often don't see the light until their physical abilities start to deteriorate. then they have to rely on their mind more... do you, or any of us for that matter, want to wait that long? i certainly don't...especially when the components to compete are so close to being there. we have the dominant post play, we have the scoring threats from the outside, we have role players, we have the ability to play good defense. but they ALL have to be commited to something larger than themselves: the team. yao is. mobes, i believe, is. jj is. griff is. steve? well, he talks a good talk. we're about to find out if he can walk the good walk.

 

I think that the problem with Rudy is, like the problem could be with JVG eventually, that coaches who live on the extremes usually have results for a while, but eventually get tuned out.


Rudy was an extreme player's coach; considered by most in the NBA to be the most extreme player's coach. When he had veteran teams which had largely inherited work ethics and senses of accountability from other coaches, Rudy's light hand, treating them 'like adults', etc. worked. When younger players were introduced into that environment, the older players served as the example and watchdogs for their own behaviour.

But when the team became dominated by younger players, then there were problems. Players liked RUdy, even loved him, but they didn't fear him at all. As such, he would get mediocre results; enough to elevate some less talented players, and certainly enough to inspire sporadically extreme physical exertions, but not enough off season commitment, or sublimination of self for the sake of the team. He, in turn, used a system which placed as little demand on this aspect as possible, choosing instead to emphasisze individual talent rather than try and make players conform. To an extent this worked, but it was not the kind of atmosphere that could ever lead to any great progress, and as the players came to more and more expect to be able to do what they want, and rely on their individual skills, the concept of team, whether it was through any kind of team offense, or playing defense which requires a team mentality was essentally abandoned, other than everyone liking one another. This was often confused with chemistry, which it wasn't.

Jeff Van Gundy was not at all my first choice as a coach, as I felt he was another example of an organization reacting to one extreme with another. We see this time and again in pro sports; a team follows a player's coach with a disciplinarian, or vice versa. It almost always works in the short run, and almost always has run it's course within 3-4 years, whereupon they go back to othe toher extreme. There are exceptions, but this is the general trend.

That said, JVG does bring some important aspect, such as accountability and creating a definitive team identity, which we desperately needed. Furthermore he seems committed to an inside out game, which when you possess one of the best centers in the game, is a must. And if we are going to make that kind of transfer, you'd better have a tough guy at the helm. I would have much prefered Larry Brown...or a few others. But short of the ideal, I'll ride JVG for now, additionally because he never had an opportunity to work with this kind of telent before. It's likely he'll have success for a couple of years, and then the player's will tune out his bark much as they tuned out Rudy's patting, but JVG could easily turn out to be one of the exceptions; he knows the game inside out, works constantly, and has had success in the past.

 

I just heard an update on 610. Things don't sound good. JVG isn't happy with how his team played, JJ isn't happy with some of his teammates.

Sounds like things will change on the court or their could be major changes off it.

 

Aint that the truth, Steve passes as a bail out play when he doesnt have a shot. He never lets his teammates get comfortable b/c they dont know when the hell to expect the ball or when he is going to shoot it. With Jason Kidd, he is passing and you better be ready. But the main problem, there is only one Jason Kidd.....

 

specifics, my man!! specifics!!! give me more!!!!

 

honestly, that shouldn't surprise anyone. baskeball is a results-oriented business...when you're not producing, you make changes. if you don't, you just get used to losing.

 

Ill-Skillz,


since you're a baseball fan, i'll give you the perfect comparison.


steve francis = dave kingman

 

That was it! It was one of those 10 second news update. They said JVG, Jim Jackson and someone else was unhappy. That there was a lot of "trash talking" going on. I don't remember who the 3rd was.

By the way, my comment about some changes off the court was just my editorial comment, there was no mention of trades. I was just being hopeful.