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"The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism"

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by mc mark, Sep 14, 2006.

  1. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Thanks, guys! I'd rather carry both branches of Congress in November, but I'll take what I can get. ;)



    Keep D&D Civil.
     
  2. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    I hate to rain on your parade, Deckard ;) but the Senate has only eight seats that could be challenged by the Dems, I believe. In order to gain the Senate, the Dems would have to win six out of those eight seats, if I am not mistaken. Basically, a slim chance of that happening.

    Now winning the House is more feasible...then two years from November the Dems could try to make more gains in the Senate and win the presidency. Of course, a lot could change between now and then, so who knows which party the country will be more sick of by then...
     
  3. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Don't be so sure about the senate tiger. Although it's not definitive, there is a good chance of it happening. Just one indication...


    Dems Widen Leads Over GOP Incumbents In Three Key Senate Races

    A spate of new polls just out from Rasmussen shows that Dems have widened their leads in three key Senate races:

    -- In Ohio, Dem Sherrod Brown now leads GOP Senator Mike DeWine by six points, 47%-41%. Last month, a Rasmussen poll showed that Brown's lead was statistically insignificant.

    -- In Rhode Island, Dem Sheldon Whitehouse is head of GOP Senator Lincoln Chafee by eight points, 51%-43%. A little over two weeks ago, Rasmussen had Whitehouse ahead by only two points.

    -- And in Montana, after a series of bad gaffes by GOP Senator Conrad Burns, Dem Jon Tester is ahead of the incumbent by nine points, 52%-43%. They were tied at 47% in August, according to Rasmussen.

    Note that all three trailing Republicans are incumbents.

    http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/
     
  4. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

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    Assuming they win these three states, they would need to: 1) hold on to all their current seats (not assured); and 2) win six of the eight Republican seats up for grabs.

    It's not impossible, no, but improbable...
     
  5. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    I'm going to remain optimistic! ;)

    More from Rasmussen.

    Rasmussen: Post-election Senate 'balance' of power

    Democrats have to win all seven states leaning their way plus all three Toss-Ups to regain control of the Senate. While that’s a tall order, recent history shows that it is quite possible for one party or the other to sweep all the close races. The Democrats did so in Election 2000 and the Republicans returned the favor in 2002. If the Democrats win all those seats but one, there would be a 50-50 tie. In that circumstance, Vice-President Dick Cheney would cast the deciding vote in his Constitutional role as the presiding officer of the Senate.

    ---------------

    The struggling campaigns of Republican Senators Conrad Burns (MT), Lincoln Chafee (RI) and Mike DeWine (OH) have led Rasmussen Reports to modify their election ratings to yield almost an even split in the post-election Senate.

    "The battle for control of the U.S. Senate is getting closer—much closer," Rasmussen declared. Recently they had summarized the Senate with Republicans leading 50-45 but now give it as 49-48, the GOP only a seat ahead with three races still considered "toss-ups."


    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2006/BalanceofPower.htm
     
  6. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Do you know what would be highly ironic? If Lieberman ended up winning as an independent, and held the balance of power for majority rule. It's not impossible. Hey, I'll remain opitimistic about the Democratic chances in the Senate, and I'm getting more optimistic. It wasn't supposed to be this close. The GOP is sweating buckets.



    Keep D&D Civil.
     
  7. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Once again the Military speaks out against the administration...


    US Army top brass critical of Iraq war


    Washington: US President George W Bush’s plan for interrogating al-Qaeda detainees has led to a new round of criticism. But unlike other times, this time it's coming from inside the military.

    There are legal officers who say the President's plan puts US troops at risk by opening the door to redefining how personnel are treated under the Geneva conditions.

    Three retired chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff also object to the interrogation plan. This is what they had to say.

    General Colin Powell said, "The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism."

    "It could give opponents a legal argument for the mistreatment of Americans being held prisoner in time of war," General John Vessey said.

    General John Shalikashvili said the administration proposal “poses a grave threat to American service members.

    But that's isn’t enough. There are more questions about whether there were ever enough troops in Iraq.

    Brigadier General John Kelly, who was on the front line in from 2003 to 2004, says he often had to move around.

    "We are thankful that things didn't get too ugly too quickly because we literally didn't have the Marines or sailors to spare," Kelly said.

    There is also General Binford Peay, retired head of Central Command, who said he believes there were "far too few" troops to Iraq. Peay is the third recent Central Command chief to criticise the war plan.

    This past spring there have been several retired Generals who are essentially revolting and calling for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign.

    However, the second revolt, analysts say reflect growing and deeper unhappiness with how the war is going.

    http://www.ibnlive.com/news/us-army-top-brass-criticise-bush/21927-2.html
     
  8. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    all americans should be tired of the arrogance of this admin

    bush even said in his speech that it is unacceptable for powell to question him

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/
     
  9. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Deal possibly reached, developing...
     
  10. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    More like rolling over... the limits of my cynicism are further tested...
     
    #70 rimrocker, Sep 21, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2006
  11. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Frist: “Classified information will not be shared with the terrorists” tried before the tribunals, he said. And “the very important program of interrogation continues.”

    This means we can try you (and presumably kill you) without presenting the evidence against you and "very important program" means torture. That we as a people have allowed this to be debated, much less "compromised" saddens me as much as anything done in my lifetime. God, how fast we have fallen.

     
  12. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    I am saddened for the America I was born into.
     
  13. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    rim I think they're still talking...

    Update: GOP, WH Fashion "Framework of Agreement" over Torture


    The White House and GOP members of Congress say they've reached some level of compromise to break the deadlock over detainee treatment legislation. The deal, however, does not appear to solve a key disagreement over the use of classified information in terror prosecutions.

    White House adviser Steven Hadley called the deal struck between the White House and three conservative GOP senators a "framework of agreement," while Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) called it a “conceptual agreement.” Nothing has been signed, however, and no specifics have been confirmed.

    With the caveat that "details of the agreement were sketchy," AP reported the following:

    It seems the agreement resolves just one of two points of conflict, however. There's no indication the administration has dropped its insistence it can prohibit terror suspects from seeing classified evidence used against them. Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-SC), one of three senators negotiating with the administration, has called that issue "the killer."

    McClatchy quoted the senator Sept. 9: "I don't feel good about telling someone - no matter who they are - `We're going to execute you next week, but I'm sorry, we can't tell you why.'"

    http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001585.php
     
  14. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Did Bush get that which he wants more than anything else, in my opinion... immunity from prosecution for breaking the Geneva Convention's ban against the use of torture? Have the 3 GOP senators really rolled over for the Administration, or are they still in negotiations? I've been out. Guess I should surf the net, lol!



    Keep D&D Civil.
     
  15. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    I agree with this guy... and where are the Dems?

    http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/specter-sees-light-on-great-habeas.html
     
  16. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    “the very important program of interrogation continues.”

    --Bill Frist

    In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them.

    George Orwell
    Politics and the English Language
    1946

    (via Billmon)
     
  17. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    If this was posted in the other thread, well... it belongs here too...

     
  18. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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  19. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    There it is. We just lost the "war on terror".
     
  20. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Listening to the senators and the president, reading and watching the news, everyone is saying that the president's torture policy can go forward under the law, the trials will go forward without prisoners being able to see evidence against them and the Geneva Convention's article 3 has been preserved.

    But no one is saying how this was achieved.

    I'm very confused! Can anyone explain the details about all this?
     

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