"The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism"

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. ~Thomas Paine

We have enjoyed so much freedom for so long that we are perhaps in danger of forgetting how much blood it cost to establish the Bill of Rights. ~Felix Frankfurter

Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves. ~D.H. Lawrence, Classical American Literature, 1922

 

Stupidest. Argument. Ever.

 

inspired by rhadamanthus' post.

Please tell me a blond haired gentile in Nazi Germany was affected by Hitler detaining and deporting Gypsies, Jews, Homosexuals, etc.?

rhadamanthus couldn't have been more right.

 

ive had them for awhile. but these new laws are an absolute disgrace and a slap in the face to everything that america stands for.

this really makes official the fact that bush is a dictator. the constitution, which elected officials, including bush swear to uphold now goes out the window. any american citizen can now be arrested for anything and held w/out charges for as long as they want. and the fact that bush granted himself immunity from any future war crimes charges! what the hell is that? why would they put that provision in unless they knew they were indeed committing war crimes?

remember this quote for mr. "jesus is my favorite philosopher"?
"This debate is occurring because the Supreme Court's ruling that said that we must conduct ourselves under the Common Article III of the Geneva Convention. And that Common Article III says that there will be no outrages upon human dignity. It's very vague. What does that mean? Outrages upon human dignity. Tha's a statement that is wide open to interpretation."
http://www.dubyaspeak.com/audio/player.phtml?clip_name=outrages&plugin=rm

or bush's legal council and author of the torture legislation, john yoo, stating that bush has the authority to have a childs testicles crushed while his parents are forced to watch.

During a December 1st debate in Chicago with Notre Dame professor and international human rights scholar Doug Cassel, John Yoo gave the green light for the scope of torture to legally include sexual torture of infants.

Cassel: If the president deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?

Yoo: No treaty.

Cassel: Also no law by Congress — that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo…

Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/yoo-1.mp3

Yale Law Professor Bruce Ackerman states in the L.A. Times, "The compromise legislation....authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights."
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ackerman28sep28,0,619852.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail

Law Professor Marty Lederman explains: "this [subsection (ii) of the definition of 'unlawful enemy combatant'] means that if the Pentagon says you're an unlawful enemy combatant -- using whatever criteria they wish -- then as far as Congress, and U.S. law, is concerned, you are one, whether or not you have had any connection to 'hostilities' at all."
http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/imagine-giving-donald-rumsfeld.html

 

double post

 

Do you guys own a bunker with canned goods and water?

Comparing Bush to Hitler now? That deserves two .

I've never argued Bush to be the greatest president of our times and I certainly don't agree with everything he's done. It sounds to me like you have a lot of things you want to hide.

The last time I checked you still have the freedom to leave this country. But I hope you stay because the Rockets need your support this season.

 

whats next? declaration of martial law and secret police?

 

Yes, God forbid that happens. I doubt it will though.

 

1) Convictions cease to be convictions if they are only kept when conveniant, or if they only apply to one's self.
2) Men without firm convictions are cowards, bereft of humanity, and devoid of intellectual and moral capability.
3) You do realize you are supporting torture and suspension of your right to a trial by jury, right?

With that mentality, it sounds like you left America a long time ago.

 

And for the record, Hitler suspended habeas corpus on Febraury 28th, 1933.
For the record, he also supported torture.

The comparison, at least in this regard, is apt.

 

i have a post-katrina mindset. the government can no longer be expected to help us out in times of crisis. i do have a week or so of non-perishable food, a bunch of propane and a water filter. i also realized that the government can no longer be expected to protect us in times of crisis so i went and armed myself.

i wish that the cowards who hate the principles that america stands for and was founded on would leave.

i wish that the cowards who support torturing other humans would leave.

 

i wonder if hitler would have supported crushing childrens testicles with a pair of pliers, like bush's legal council john yoo said bush can do.

 

Not exactly. What this bill does is give the executive branch to detain anyone indefinately and not have to even tell them why. Under such power any freedoms that we have are suspect including the right to leave the country since at any time the Executive branch could detain with no reason other than their own judgement.

The problem is that your view is similar to the arg ument "If you have nothing to hide why fear being searched?" You presume that as a decent law abiding average American you won't be subject to some sort of unreasonable detention. What you are missing is that this bill would essentially legalize unreasonable detentions. The only basis you have is trust that the government won't screw up and somehow your name won't accidently end up on a terrorists watch lists the problem is that we know the government is far from perfect and mistakes and corruption happen but more importantly if something like that happens you will never know why that would happen since you don't have Habeus Corpus and you will never be able to challenge it legally either.

 

I would rather preserve our country than leave it.

I wasn't comparing Bush to Hitler. I was accurately describing nations that acted without habeas corpus. I then used an example to show that because one person isn't affected directly by loss of freedoms doesn't mean the loss of those freedoms is OK. It wasn't an effort to say that we are the same as Nazi Germany. I tried to make that clear.

It isn't about one person has to hide or not hide. I am not sure why you are associating the right to privacy with the right to hide a wrong. That isn't what it is about.

It is an inherant requirement for maintaining human dignity and respect. Furthermore when a govt. is constantly changing what is right and wrong, then it is all the more important that we be able to maintain our privacy.

I thought this from Wired news was great... Cardinal Richelieu understood the value of surveillance when he famously said, "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged."

Let me ask you. Why send a letter in an enevelope if you have nothing to hide?

Authority abusing their power is basically the history of the world. I don't trust them, and prefer my civil liberties, and the constitution of hte United States. I prefer the rule of law, and habeas corpus.

You may not care about the Constitution, freedoms, or the things this country was built on. As you said yourself, you are free to leave.

But also like you said... The Rockets need your support.

 

America is headed towards becoming a police state - in spite of the best Constitution ever given a free people.

Amazing

link

 

Dude, he specifically said that he was NOT comparing Bush to Hitler or any of the other people on that list.

You need to learn how to comprehend the written word.

 

I've updated the pledge of allegiance for Congress and all Bush supporters.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the Fascist States of America,
and to the Police State for which it stands:
one Prison under Bush, indivisible,
With War and Torture for all.

 

Why start now?