Out of all the hall of fame guards, he might be the most relatively underrated. He might have also been overshadowed by Roberton when Robertson was playing for Milwaukee later in his career (early 70s?).
I'm just curious on the year when Wilt led the league in assists, who did he lose the scoring title to that year?
The 76-77 Trail Blazers didn't have a player in the top 20. Who the hell was on the team? Was that one of Waltons? Isiah was beaten out by Stockton the years the Pistons won. He had 8 one year and 9.4 the next. So far, it doesn't look like Magic was #1 in a year they won the championship. Wilt was #3 in 66-67 when he won with the Philly Warriors.
In 1968, Wilt led the league it total assists but not assists per game (Robertson was the leader in APG). That year he was 4th in scoring behind Robertson, Bing and Baylor. MannyR, Actually, in 1968, Oscar Robertson led the league in PPG and APG.
Dreamshake, I actually appreciate some of your opinions, but I think you've missed the mark on this one. When Dream was the focus of the offense, in what portion of the game did he establish himself. The half-court. That gave other players the opportunity to get in the flow, and tax the defense, at other portions of the game, during fast break opportunities, etc, as well as to take up Dream's sloppy-seconds in the half-court. Steve is the friggin' point guard. He shouldn't be the primary offense. He'll have plenty of opportunities to threaten the defense. The entire notion of him being a prime threat in the half-court is disgusting to me. And what does it mean if he makes 30 ppg? Who cares? How many games do you honestly think that we'll win if he scores 30 ppg? Games against Denver? Games against a Vince-less Raptors that still almost pulled out the win? Yipty whoopty doo. The Rockets need to get real. We're either a horrible team whose other young players can't finish the passes from Steve, or we're a emerging team that develops cohesiveness, and incredible athletic ability from every spot on the floor (which I see in hindsight was the point of verse's poll a few weeks ago). It's probable that we're just trying to squeak out some wins here until Yao and Mo can contribute... but I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't just take our knocks and create a team. If it turns out that Rudy isn't just trying to squeak out some wins, then he should take his knocks.
codell, You are right about the Big O in 1968. I should have said who was the last person to do it. Or better yet, who was the only player to lead the league in scoring, assists, and minutes per game (I know, I know, that is a cheesey way of getting around the Big O's 1968 season, but hey it works! ).
I'm trying to figure out which Hakeem you guys are talking about. The championship, 30+ year old Dream was amazing. He passed out of double teams. He helped on defense. He scored, rebounded and blocked shots. Now, the under 30-year-old Hakeem never saw a double or triple team he couldn't challenge. That Olajuwon ROUTINELY ignored his fellow teammates feeling he could beat 1, 2 or 3 guys at any time. Often, he was absolutely right. He could because he was that good. But, it wasn't until he learned to give up some of that control that he racked up the rings. The problem I see with this team isn't with Steve. To me, the problem is that we have a number of talented players (Steve included) who get their shots one-on-one. At least with Hakeem, most of the team KNEW he was it and they were just living in his world. When the team was subsequently built around his skill, the players added were complimentary. This team may have to undergo a personnel change to adapt to their star player. IMO, only Francis, Griffin and Yao are this team's nucleus. Any other player that fancies himself a part of that is probably not seeing the big picture. That doesn't mean the whole team will be dismantled. It just means that the organization needs to explain to the players who are here that this is the way it is going to be. If they want to be a part of that and be supportive of that, they can stay. If not, they may have to go. Steve is suffering the same complaints a young Hakeem Olajuwon suffered. He was loved and hated. There were PLENTY of fans who DEMANDED, not just hoped for or considered, but WANTED Hakeem to be dealt. It almost happened. He stayed and we got better. The same thing can happen with Steve.
Im looking through my Sporting News NBA Almanac (great book) I think I figured out the discrepency. In 1968, Oscar led the league in PPG average and APG average, but NOT total points or total assists (he only played 65 games....Bing led in total points and Wilt led in total assists). In 1972, Archibad led the league in PPG average, total points, APG average and total assists.
You make a good point Jeff. To me, watching the Rockets as is, is like watching Austin Powers. Francis is Dr. Evil and Mobley is mini-me. Mobley doesnt seem himself as a complimentary player (which is the role he should be in) but rather, as Steve's sidekick and relative equal. In the end. Mobley's indiscretions do not do Francis any favors because they just magnify Steve's shortcomings because everyone kinda groups them together. Moochie's failings only make all of this even worse. In the end, there are too many cooks in the kitchen and not enough assistants.
Yeah and it used to be said that you couldnt win without a dominant big man either, but times change, and strategies change. Fact is Francis could be the type of positional player that comes around once in a few decades. A point guard that can get you 30 points and 9 assists per game. Once again, it wasnt Steves fault we lost the game against the Sonics. He dished, scored, took control of the game when he had too (How many people used to gripe about Vince not being assertive enough) and ran the offense. The problem the team is encounturing is the lack of second and third and fourth passes. Too often one pass becomes the final pass as the clear out is set in motion. Thats what hurts us. Not Steve's ability to take over a game. 9 assists is 9 assists no matter how you slice it....and as several posters noticed during the game, Steve could of had alot of other easier set ups if team mates wouldnt of bobbled them away. I bet some of you were the same fellows claiming how youd wish Steve would be more assertive in the offensive part of the game a few years back. Steve is the Point Guard...he is going to handle the ball alot, get used to it. Ill take a guy who can score 30 get 9 assists over a guy who gets 17 and 10 assits any day of the week. Its not that hard people. Like I said, once we become the type of team that learns to move without the ball, and make the second pass (sacraficing personal stats) we will be a much better team...even if Steve averages over 25 a game.
I would agree with you here. Actually, I'll take it a step further. I think the role of the point guard is changing. The classic NBA point is typified by John Stockton. Guys like Mike Bibby and even Jason Kidd follow that mold. Players like Baron Davis and even Andre Miller mirror the change in the tone and style of many point guards. If AI had come along a few years later, he my still be at the point. It is difficult for people to accept the re-defining of any position. The demand that players fit neatly into a mold is no different than the demand that PEOPLE fit neatly into a role in everyday life. It is jarring to accept changes and takes time.
DShake - I'm going to respond one more time because I know you are not ignorant about bball in general. But I feel you are being hard headed in your desires to analyze/support Steve Francis. Both of us could expouse endless theories to support or detract from SF. I am going to get to the bottomline very quickly but let's establish something first - Francis is absolutely not a 30 ppg / 9 apg player. Your "30/9" is a composite of his current scoring average and his best season assist total. Neither is likely to be his average for a whole season and hopefully you can see that. What myself (and many others) are trying to tell you is that Francis's shoot first/pass second methodology can not win the NBA championship. Sure, a healthy Francis can get the Rockets to the playoffs with this style. And that's it...no mas. Do yourself a favor. Get ahold of a tape of the last Seattle game (I'll send you one on the house if desired). Observe two things - 1) The Rockets were up by 1 at the half. Francis totally controlled the ball to start the second half and the Rockets went down by 9 when he left with his 4th foul. 2) During the amazing 4Q run (I think it was 16-3) to make the game close, observe how many other players were involved. Hawkins, Griffin, Norris all had some of those 16 points. They got touches in the flow of the game. I propose to you that the real Steve Francis is not a 30/9 player but in reality closer to a 30/5. And I propose further that a 20/10 player has more value to his team than a 30/5 player even though 40 points is attributable to both. The 20/10 player keeps his teammates involved - physically and mentally - and his teammates have a shooting rhythm! IMVHO, the current floor style displayed by Steve Francis can win games but very few of those will be against playoff caliber teams.
Interesting discussion so far. I agree with Gater that a 20-10 PG is better for the team than a 30-6 PG. However, I would much rather Steve be something in the middle here's why.... I have resigned myself to the fact that Steve Francis will never be a true PG but is more a SG trying to play the PG spot. Thus, if you try to run the offense through him to the extent where he could become a 20-10 player, I dont think he could do it in such a way where his turnovers would stay low. 9-10 APG with 4-5 TO is not a good thing. A player like Gary Payton can average 9 APG and only about 2 TO creating an Ast to TO ratio of over 4 to 1. Problem is, Francis just does not have the decision making ability to average something like that. In order for a player to average that high an amount of AST like Payton, Kidd, Andre Miller, Baron Davis, etc the ball has to be in his hands a HUGE percentage of the time, and he has to be the primary decision maker on offense. I would much rather the Rockets system evolve to the point where the frontcourt players esp Ming share in a huge part of the decision making. I could very easily see Yao with his size and passing ability make the game much easier for the guards. Yao could average 5 APG with this kind of role in the offense, and Steve could still avg 23-25 PPG w/o the offense coming to a grinding halt. Francis is at the stage now where he could average that many PPG w/o having to take a whole bunch of shots b/c of two reasons. First off, Francis's mid range shot has become alarmingly consistent (its pretty obvious it has improved a lot, much as Mobley's has). Yao making decisions on offense will enable Francis to move more off the ball and receive the ball in much easier positions to score, thus his FG% should stay high, maybe not 50% but atleast 47%. Secondly, Francis has been getting to the line a LOT this season. 9.25 attempts a game so far b/c he has really been doing a good job off attacking the basket and drawing contact. Thus, Francis can still be a 25-6 player with Yao averaging 5 APG, and this offense could be one of the top 5 in the league eventually. I have no idea how long it is going take Yao to be able to make these types of plays at the NBA level, but I think that is what will be required for this team to reach its potential.
