The case here is not what you can do to stop the person because they did stop him but what they did afterwards is up for debate.
One correction... I found out today that none of the Wal-Mart employees or security called an ambulance. That was a mistake on my part. There were calls placed to police by store employees that they had apprehended a shoplifter, but nothing to 911 to send an ambulance. It was a woman BYSTANDER who finally phoned 911 and said to send an ambulance when she was not allowed to give CPR to the suspect. Up until that point, no employee or security person attempted to call for an ambulance despite the fact that the suspect lay motionless on the ground with his fingers gray and his face blue for almost 7 minutes. Just getting these details from eyewitness accounts as I'm hearing them and wanted to pass them along.
One other thing...my friend sent this to me regarding services for her relative and requests for prayers and flowers. Whatever you think about the situation, please keep her family in your prayers. Stacy Clay Driver August 31, 1974 - August 7, 2005 I know that flowers for Stacy are VERY very important to my dad and the only thing I can think of to do that might help in his grieving is to put a request out there for flowers and prayers--for those that want to do or say something. I know that even a single flower sent by a stranger that cares would mean the world to my dad. Most importantly, a prayer for strength would be very much appreciated. Services: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 at 12:30 PM Visitation: Sunday, August 14, 2005 6:00 PM until 9:00 PM Monday, August 15, 2005 throughout the day Brookside Funeral Home 13401 Eastex Freeway (US 59S) Houston, Texas 77039 (281) 449-6511
I wouldn't give cpr to a criminal, for the simple reason, he could hannibal lecter my ass. You just don't know. Maybe he shoplifted a razor blade and the cpr'r would be left in a pool of blood. When they resist they put everyones life in danger including their own. If the officers intent was to protect the civilians then that is what had to be done. Shame it is. But the only thing you can do is arrest and wait for medical supervision. I don't know proper procedure. I really don't. But my gut tells me they did what they were supposed to do.
If that's all true as reported, there's not much left to debate. At some point you can no longer rely on your claim of your own stupidity and ignorance. The court will determine that even an incredibly dumb human could have assessed that their own actions were directly and consistently leading to the death of another person.
I just read this thread for the first time b/c it was linked to Chance's thread about fat cops. anyway, i read the whole thread and didn't see a lawyer weigh in on this. I think we're talking about recklessness, which is one worse than negligent homicide, not quite as bad as intentional murder. (severity of crime goes based on the actor's state of mind - mere negligence or failure to exercise reasonable care, then reckless and conscious disregard for the health and safety of others, then intentional, knowing or deliberate act . .. ) First: ook, the law isn't perfect but it's supposed to lay out the standard of behavior society wants. So, if you undertake a job, do it in a way that is not negligent, reckless or worse. any job. Let's take the negligence standard first (if you get to negligence,then you ask if it's worse than negligence). if you're a doctor, you have to exercise reasonable care. Reasonable care is what a person of ordinary producence would do under the circumstances. Dr's have to do what other doctors would do, lawyers too, security people too. Second: what's the standard of reasonable care? how do you determine that? well, the debate here basically sums it up. You look to the security practices and policies of comparable companies. you look to see if the guards actually complied with the policies of their companies. Here, there seems to be some dispute in our crowd as to what amount of force is reasonable. Third: once you have the standard of reasonable care, you look at the facts, at what actually happened. How do you determine what evidence should be believed? Well, unbiased and contemporaneous data is usually most probative. the eyewitness accounts are overwhelming and uniform. The security guards are in serious trouble. I don't think there's a lot of room for argument as to what happened. Maybe about the facts prior to the tackling are disputed, but not after. Fourth: you apply the facts to the standard of care. if I'm the lawyer for wal mart or the security guards, I try to settle any civil lawsuit and plead for the best deal possible with the DA's office. These facts are ugly and they're looking at millions of dollars in the civil case and a long time in the slammer. You're way past negligence here. If I'm the criminal defense lawyer, I try to plead for negligent homicide and a good sentence. if you get 10-15 witnesses saying what Jeff is reporting, the dudes are in a whole lot of trouble.
Wal-Mart sued over shoplifting suspect who died in scuffle By ROBERT CROWE Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3464188 The family of a man suspected of shoplifting who died after struggling with Wal-Mart employees filed a lawsuit Tuesday against the retail giant. ADVERTISEMENT Stacy Clay Driver's father and widow are seeking unspecified damages for his Aug. 7 death at the Atascocita Wal-Mart, 6626 FM 1960 East. The Harris County Medical Examiner's Office recently ruled his death a homicide. "This family was grievously harmed," said Jim Lindeman, the lawyer for Driver's family. Wal-Mart spokesman Marty Heires declined to discuss the details of the suit. "Because this likely will be presented to a grand jury, I think any further comment now is inappropriate," Heires said. Loss-prevention employees told police that Driver tried to take $94 worth of merchandise by putting receipt stickers on items he had not purchased, claiming they were returns and asking for store credit. When confronted, Driver ran into the parking lot, pursued by a loss-prevention employee. According to the suit, the employee wrestled Driver to the ground. Other Wal-Mart employees assisted in subduing Driver as he struggled to get up. On Nov. 4, the medical examiner ruled Driver's death was caused primarily by asphyxia because of neck and chest compression while a secondary cause was hyperthermia with methamphetamine toxicity. Driver, 30, had lived with his wife, Wendy, 27, and son, Ashton, 5 months, in Cleveland, about 45 miles north of Houston.
The saddest part about this is, assuming the man's family wins this case, the average Wal-Mart employee's salary will probably drop proportionally to the size of the award divided by the total number of employees.
As you guys know, I am friends with the family. I didn't mention any of this when I heard about it two weeks ago out of respect for them. The family is absolutely devastated by the examiner's report. It was a very tough couple weeks for my friend.
Update: May 19, 2007, 1:14AM Wal-Mart to pay nearly $750,000 to family of dead shoplifting suspect Suspect died during scuffle with employees in 2005 By BRIAN ROGERS Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle The nation's largest retailer will pay nearly $750,000 to the family of a suspected shoplifter who suffocated as employees held him down in a parking lot outside a northeast Harris County store. Stacy Clay Driver, 29, died Aug. 7, 2005, in a Wal-Mart parking lot as someone sat on him while he was face-down and handcuffed, said Brad Frye, an attorney for the family. "One or more people were on his body and he couldn't breathe," Frye said this week. "This was a senseless, senseless death." The case went to mediation before being settled in March, he said. An autopsy showed that Driver had methamphetamine in his system when he was chased into the parking lot by a "loss prevention" employee at the store in Atascocita, where he was wrestled to the hot pavement. He was suspected of exchanging stolen items to get $94 worth of store credit on a gift certificate, police said. His death was ruled a homicide caused by asphyxia from neck and chest compression. The autopsy report listed a contributing factor as overheating with methamphetamine toxicity. Frye said the methamphetamine may have contributed to Driver's death, but didn't cause it. A Harris County grand jury in July 2006 declined to indict anyone in the case. According to court documents, an initial sum of $550,000 will go to Driver's wife, Wendy, their son, Ashton, and Driver's father, H.C. Driver. The son also will receive $25,000 on his 25th birthday, almost $70,000 on his 30th and $100,000 on his 35th birthday, court papers show. Driver's stepmother, Pat Driver, said the money "doesn't bring him back, it doesn't help the pain, it doesn't end anything." She said Driver's son will turn 2 in July. At the time of his death, Driver was on probation for a theft case related to a similar gift card scam the previous year at a Wal-Mart in Polk County. He had signed an agreement to never enter another Wal-Mart store. Wal-Mart's Houston lawyer, John Ramirez, referred questions about the Driver lawsuit to company headquarters. Wal-Mart spokesman John Simley declined Friday to comment on the settlement. Wal-Mart is commonly said in legal circles to be the most sued company in America and the second most sued entity in the world, behind the U.S. government. brian.rogers@chron.com http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4817740.html
