Just wondering, If the societal laws of Islam are enforced that is the same as 'converting' . Since in America if anything Christian is enforced societal it is considered proselytizing. I understand there is no separation of Islam and state in Muslim controlled society but the analogy we have here in the U.S. is that if Christianity is enforced it is proselytizing or 'converting' by definition. So if Islam is enforced it should also be considered in with the same principle in mind. I could enforce Christian law on society and everyone would immediately accuse me of attempting to convert people. So I don't think the separation you are implying is realistic or accurate. There is a compulsion felt by those who must 'convert' this is the very argument used over and over by those who feel this way in America. To say there is no compulsion to convert to Islam and to force Islamic law is to coerce individual's own conscience and we always feel we are being converted. No one may be required to go to a mosque but you will feel you must comply with the religion if it is forced upon your life. No one would have to attend a church to feel like they were forced to comply with Christianity if they were.
Of course I doubt Christians could agree on more than one or two laws for society so it is a mute point.
rhester, I understand what you are saying, but I must say I disagree. Islamic law primarily addresses areas like marriage/divorce (which is, btw, not enforceable on non-Muslims, so it stays a private matter otherwise), it levies punishments based on certain crimes, etc. So, how is it "forcing" someone else to convert? It doesn't force you to believe in Allah or adopt Islam as your faith. Afterall, faith IS required for someone to be a Christian, right? How can the laws of a Christian nation compel me to become a Christian? So if I am a citizen of the USA, am I being compelled to become a Christian (ya, I know, it would make my life easier)? How? Islamic law basically enforces a certain form of ethics/morality on a society, much like ANY civil law does. Afterall, what do laws exist for? It is to compel you to follow the social norms as they are interpreted by a given society, but that doesn't mean to religiously compel you to be a follower of a given religion. Laws are meant to keep order in society, and people have different interpretations of the law and how to best accomplish that end. Mind you, there is no such thing as a solid, unanimously agrred upon form of "Islamic Law", for it varies even within Islam, because most of what makes up the "Shari'a" (as it's called) in modernity has come about through ijtihad by various scholars/leaders, who do disagree with one another on their interpretation of what is "Islamic Law". Therefore, for ex, you have wide disagreements between Muslims as to what would make the ideal Islamic society. The Saudis have their form of Islamic law, the Iranians have their own, and other Muslim societies the world over have different interpretations of Islamic law. So no, there is no uniformity among Muslims on this subject. Religion comes down to voluntary faith and acceptance of a message, doesn't it? So that means it cannot be compelled upon a person; that is you can't compel me to be a Christian even if I tell you that I am now a Christian, because in my heart I won't be accepting of Jesus as "my Lord and Savior". Or am I missing something here?
But are you calling American Law "Christian Law"? There is a difference (I think). American laws, don't make one become Christian, just American (hopefully). That's what a democracy is supposed to be, right? I don't think most Americans would claim their law to be dictated by god (bushfish?). Christian law would be closer to Catholic Catechism becoming law or life without the First Amendment (shudder). You can see why Americans, or others of diffrent faith would be leery of Islamic "no compulsion", or feel like Islamic Law would be imposing Islam on them, making one live like a Muslim. I don't think you can have Islamic dictorships then ask others "why can't we just get along?".
Society shows that dictatorships have no basis in religion, as there have been dictatorships from every religion and those who believed in none. A dictatorship is only the intention of a group of people, or sole individual, for a power over others. Some are brutal, others are not. Regardless, interfaith peace can happen - we just have to act and make it happen.
Not everything God dictates is to the liking of the people, that's why some people reject religion in the first place, because they prefer to live their lives to their own rules (which, in an ironic sense, isn't possible, because societal laws and norms DICTATE what you can do and what you can't do, whether you live in a democracy or not).
Thank you, yes I understand what we both are saying, I was just thinking of what the reaction might be if suddenly the nation started passing laws that they said were Christian laws for example. Close all business on Sunday No Victoria Secret Stores in Malls ( ) Divorce only allowed for cases of fornication No abortion Tax money going to build churches I am not saying those are Christian laws, I am saying that if they were passed as Christian laws I feel the reaction of people sooner or later would be that they were being forced to be Christians. No they couldn't be forced to believe in Jesus Christ but they were being forced to follow Christian practice. Just my thoughts. I think if tomorrow Islamic law was enforced in America, there might be a back lash of people who felt they were being compelled to be Muslim. The key word is 'feel' - the emotional response is what I mean. So I was thinking in many ways a person might not believe in Allah but they would still feel they were compelled or forced to observe Islam- against their own will or choice. I certainly understand that this is only an outward conformity not a faith or heart issue. I was just thinking how some may feel in a Christian state and how others might feel in an Islamic state. Having Islamic law may seem non-converting to you but without the religious enforcement behind the law it probably would eventually become secular. The act of enforcement may be where people felt- compelled.
And please understand I did not say that list of laws WERE Christian Practice That was just a brain leak that I typed out right on the spot solely for the purpose of illustration.
I think your views are a bit bias, with all due respect. How would "Islamic dictatorships" differ from any other dictatorships? In fact, in Islam there is a "shura" concept in government, which was reflected by the prophet dying and refusing to assign a successor, because he wanted to leave it up to the community. No, you are right, American laws are not dictated by God, but historically speaking, they have been influenced by religion. My point was not an argument about "democracy", but rather just pointing out that as a citizen of the United States, I MUST follow the law of the U.S., which is backed up and supported by the majority of inhabitants of this country. Basically, I must abide by the law of the majority; that's what democracy is, afterall. Do I disagree with some American laws? Sure, I do, much like most of my fellow citizens. Now, aren't our laws forcing some people, against their wishes, to abide by laws they don't support? Sure, just ask the polygamists. In a similar fashion, if you are living in a Muslim ruled state (forget the religious part for a sec, treat religion here as more or less of a unique philosphy/approach to life. In this sense, whether you are an Islamic or secularist state, you have your own ideals that you are following and imposing upon the rest) you must follow the laws created by that community. American laws MAKE you respect the laws created by Americans. So how is that different from, say, living in Saudi? In both cases, there are existing laws that you must respect and follow, or you pay the consequences. So why would non-Muslims be 'leery' of the "no compulsion in religion" clause in the Koran? You say because they are made to "live like Muslims" (not true btw, but OK, let's say you are right). What does "live like a Muslim" mean? Do you even understand anything whatsoever about what it means to "live like a Muslim"? I don't think you do, your knowledge about Islam or what is required of Muslims is pretty weak, but I will give you a pass on that. "Living like a Muslim" means that first and most importantely you profess the utmost belief in the one God, by actually professing what every non-Muslim needs to do first to enter Islam, that is saying the following: "There is no God but the one God, and Mohammad is his last prophet". If you don't say that, you are not a Muslim. Moreover, you must have faith in the one God and practice (at minumum) the five pillars of Islam (which non-Muslims never do), and on and on with the list of things one must do to become a "Muslim". So, again, you can't be a "Muslim" or compelled to "convert" to Islam just by living among Muslims. In fact, if you are a non-Muslim living under an Islamic state, you would have the option of following your own inheritance/marriage laws (whatever they may be) and you don't come under Islamic law when it comes to these things; on the contrary, I don't have that option as a member of a minority group living in a non-Muslim state. However, common civil laws practiced by the state must be imposed upon the entirety of society, or otherwise division and choas endure. That is a fact in any society, not just an Islamic one. But again, for the sake of repeating what I have already said, there are no countries in the world today that fully implement Islamic law, and as I said before, there is no uniformity among Muslims as to which version of Islamic law is the "true path". Islamic law is really an ambiguous word, it doesn't mean much, because there is such a wide variety of what constitutes "Islamic law" and, in fact, it was meant to be vague, so it can be allowed to evolve and expand to address the new challenges faced by new generations. Oh, btw, you CAN be a Muslim and NOT live under an ideal "Islamic" state. If that wasn't possible, then no one currently living in the world can honestly claim to be a Muslim. It is entirely possible for myself to live in a Christian-majority state and still fully practice my religion as a Muslim; it is called "Fiqh al-hijra". In fact, Islamic law, or jurisprudence, is identified in Wikipedia as follows: "Islamic jurisprudence, Fiqh (in Arabic and Persian: فقه) is made up of the rulings of Islamic scholars to direct the lives of the Muslim faithful." So as you can see here, these laws are mostly man-made, under the concept of ijtihad, which is identified by Wikipedia as follows: "Ijtihad is a technical term of the Islamic law that describes the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the sources of the law, the Qur'an and the Sunna."
rhester, I completely understand what you are saying, and I understand the concern some would have if we woke up tomorrow and found out that the US turned into a full-pledged Christian nation. My whole point was this: you wouldn't feel any more compelled by observing civilian law that is moduled after Islamic fiqh than, say, being compelled to observe the laws of any given state. In both cases you are compelled to follow the law, the origin of the law (as in how it came about: religious or secular inspiration) should not be an issue. Let me ask you this: are you compelled to follow some laws/rules living in this country that contradict your beliefs/views? You may not be (since you were born and raised in this society and have grown accustomed to its laws and its political/economic philosophy), but I can assure you others do. I think in this case, as in others, people tend to react to the label "Islamic" more so than anything else.
Therein lies the crux of the matter: Christians don't even agree with one another about what sort of laws a Christian society should adopt, the same exact thing is true of Muslims. As I said before, Islamic jurisprudence comes about from the concept of ijtihad
BTW, rhester, I don't remember if you said you were a Church pastor or not, but I am hoping you can educate me a bit further as to how, according to your religion, a Christian should live, and whether or not you think American society/laws/etc. is, as some Christians claim, becoming anti-Christianity. I am also hoping if you can educate me as to what exactly is the difference between an Episcopilian, a Methodist, an Evangelist, etc. I know, I know, I could research it, but I don't know if I can find accurate info about this onli Don't tell anyone, but one of my favorite shows is "Jack Van Impe Presents" . I also watch Pastor Joel Osteen every Sunday on my local channels. I am trying to learn as much about Christianity as I can, and have registered taken a "Christian Ethics" course in college at UH one time, with Dr. Lynn Mitchell. We read books by Ramsey and Wogaman. Very interesting stuff.
I will say that I like the way this thread has been going for the most part. There are a few exceptions, but there are also a lot of examples of people from different positions exchanging thoughts, ideas, and questions. It really is cool.
Sure, just remember this is only my opinion or view of it, there are other views. And it is late for me, I'll give a little bit here, but if you want to email me I can exchange views or anything that would be helpful to understand Christianity and I am sure you know far more about Islam than I do. We could share. Very basic- 1. A Christian should live like Jesus Christ, but the power doesn't come from the Christian it comes through 'grace' The word grace in the New Testament is the Greek word for gift from God, you could say the ability to live a Christian life comes from God by the work of His Spirit inside the heart (mind, soul etc). It is a gift and it comes from God. The basic expression of this in a Christian life is ...- Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as much as you love yourself. This love is another Greek word that translates as God's love. It means disinterested benevolence or unselfish good will that pleases God. To share the history and understanding of the various denominations would take some time. There are several main or large Christian denominations (or sects) and hundreds to thousands of smaller groups. The differences between the groups usually comes down to an emphasis for that group. Where most groups hold to basic foundational truths of the Bible they each have specific emphasis that separate them. Email me for more information. Evangelical is a large group made up of denominations or sects that teach or emphasize evangelization- the sharing of the Gospel of Christ, in other words they practice conversion or prosilyzation of non-Christians. I would be happy to share more with you, and thank you for asking.
