I will refute the points you make. In the status quo, prohibition against driving or wearing normal clothing is the case only in Saudi Arabia, which has 7 million Muslims out of 1.5 billion in the world. You can do the math to see exactly what percentage of the Muslim world that is. I don't need to refute the point of giving money to terrorists because I agree with your assessment that a small percentage do it. That is certainly not representative of Islam as you have established. With respect to the concept of violence in the Qur'an, the Qur'an is revelation (i.e. direct words from God via Gabriel) unlike the Bible , which is for the most part in 3rd person. Hence, many mentions in the Qur'an are not a general rule, but rather a situational directive from God. I'll give you an example with the passage most quoted by non-Muslims to reflect Qur'anic violence. The passage reads put down the polytheists wherever you find them, and capture them and beleaguer them and lie in wait for them at every ambush" . This is from the 9th chapter of the Qur'an. This was a revelation during a war. Very similar to how God commands Jews to kill Canaanites in the Old Testament. With respect to Muslims hating Jews, that is simply a misnomer. Muslims do not hate Jews, but Israel. That hatred has its roots in politics and not religion. The best proof of that is that this hatred that you see today was virtually non-existent pre-1948. As a matter of fact, Jews were treated better by Muslims throughout history than by anyone else. That is objective history held true by historians irrespective of nationality or creed. I did not call you stupid, redneck, or bigot, but I did refute your points. Since I took the time to humor you, please humor me as well and refute what I have said. Thanks.
StupidMoniker...if you would just pick up a book written by a Muslim and read you will learn about Islam...you also are not differentiating between cultural Islam and the religion Islam... by the way everything you see in the world today is all politics…the western countries have the wrong idea about the east…while the eastern media has it all wrong about the west…and then there is politics in the middle…
First, thank you for your reasonable and cordial response. It is much easier to discuss a topic when the focus is kept on the issues and not on name calling and flaming. I commend you. I agree that prohibition against driving is a Suadi thing, I know for a fact that other nations restrict the dress of Muslim women. The Qur'an may teach violence only situationally, but that is still teaching violence in my opinion. I admitted that the Old Testament may have as much violent teaching as the Qur'an in my original post. I stand by my assertion that it has more violent teaching than the New Testament as well. I do not think that many Arabs differentiate between Israelis and Jews. Whatever the root cause of their Jew hatred, I think that you would have to agree that among at least certain Muslim populations, especially in the Middle-East, the outcome of a poll on their feelings toward Jews would not be favorable. I have not made any claims to the historacal treatment of anyone pre-1948, or even pre-2005. I am only talking about the state of things today. Most Muslims born outside of the Middle-East, especially those in developed, western nations are very moderate. I would say a good number of Muslims living in the Middle-East have many of the problems I have described. Hopefully this whole democracy in Iraq thing works out and that part of the world can start coming out of the dark ages. We shall see. The biggest problem facing Islam is that in much of the world, the face of Islam is the extremists. In America, Christians have much the same problem, as we are all lumped into the same boat as Falwell and boy-raping priests.
Not only CAIR does a lot to protest militants and terrorism, but it happens all over. There are a number of books by moderate muslims talking about Islam, and how they feel the islamic terrorists aren't truly following their religion. The owner of Al arabya arabic language satelite news channel has talked about it. There are programs like the one mentioned in this thread starter all which talk about it. Even in Iran they held a massive vigil for the victims of 9/11 right after it happened. To say the moderates aren't speaking out against it, isn't correct. They are speaking out, the question is, is anyone else listening. The problem with the media was already mentioned.
The feeling is mutual. I think the D&D is best served when we all stay civil and cordial. It's good when you can make your points and I can refute and vice versa without insults and name calling. I also applaud you.
Hey guys, just wanted to chime in with my own opinion about this... As for the Koranic revelations where some form of "violence" is being endorsed, the real problem here is that you have to be very much aware of the historical/situational background of the verse(s), and be well-versed in the entire history of Islam to really understand the Koran. This is really a problem even MOST Muslims are facing, they don't have a strong understanding/knowledge of the historical context of the Koranic verses, and without understanding the context and history of the years of revelation, you cannot possibly understand what these verses (among others) are referring to. Take for example the verses in the Koran that some people refer to as a "contradiction", the ones dealing with alcohol drinking. In the first verse regarding alcohol drinking -- it was revealed in the very early years after the founding of Islam -- Muslims were instructed not to pray while drunk. However, as Islam matured and now had a stronger base of followers who now were themselves maturing as Muslims, a new revelation regarding alcohol was revealed, only this time it outright prohibited drinking alcohol. In this example, if you didn't have a full understanding of the history of Islam and the Koranic revelations, you wouldn't understand the context of these verses. I hope this somewhat illustrates what I mean when I say that you must have a background that enables you to understand the "historical context" of these revelations. Otherwise, the whole meaning of the Koran will get lost on you. This is exactly why I don't think that it is enough for someone to read the Koran and try to understand it and thus hope to glean a good understanding of Islam, but it would be necessary to speak to a knowledgeable Muslim who can walk you through the historical background of specific verses, and why this was revealed when it was revealed, and what is meant by it. This in Islam is called "Tafseer", and there are many Islamic scholars who set about trying to "interpret" the Koran, and yes they do often disagree on the true meaning of certain verses, for as I said before, Islam is not a monolithic body by any stretch of the imagination, there are various "schools" in Islam that represent the over 1.3 billion Muslims scattered around the world, much like there is in Christianity and even in the much smaller Jewish community around the world. Now, someone said something about how moderate Muslims don't criticize militant Islam and are ignoring this problem in their socities. Well, the sad thing is that it is almost never covered by the Western media WHEN Muslim figures/organizations do exactly that. For example, CAIR (an organization right here in the states) has launched a few months back a campaign called "Not in the name of Islam" (, basically collecting signatures online by Muslims who reject terrorist in the name of Islam and refuse to let those terrorists hijack the religion for their own evil causes. How much attention did this garner in the national media? Not even a single mention I am aware of. How about the fact that the Grand Mufti (Grand Sheikh) in Saudi Arabia, and the Imam of the Mecca mosque, came out publicly renouncing terrorism and acts of violence committed by Muslims in illegitimate fashion; this means violence carried out by Muslims without proper cause, such as an occupation or in self-defense, which is btw the ONLY time "armed jihad" can take place and is sanctioned by Islam. But again, blame the Western media for not covering these wide-spread condemnations of terrorism by prominent Muslim scholars and Muslim organizations/intellectuals. Do you honestly think a "real" Muslim would approve of the 9/11 atrocities or the Madrid train bombings? Muslim armies were the FIRST to ever institute a "code of conduct" in warfare that instructs the warriors to spare every "elderly man, woman, and child" during a war, to not target unarmed civilians, and to even cease fighting a man who lays down his arms and ceases to threaten you. Hope this helps...
My brother, Hope this link helps, it is a compilation (by CAIR) of just a sample of the worldwide condemnations by Muslims to the attacks of Sept 11, and terrorist attacks in general. Please, everyone, take the time to read it, and I hope this would be enough proof in the future for people who question the effort being made by Muslims the world over to condemn terrorism. As I said, it is a matter of these stories not getting wide media coverage, and not a "lack" of condemnation by my fellow Muslims: http://cair.com/html/911statements.html
This is an excellent Q&A session with an Islamic scholar, who was asked many questions regarding terrorism/violence and who provides clear citation of Hadiths and Koranic verses to back up his answers. Hope this answers some of the questions people have regarding Islam's endorsement of "terrorism": American Muslim scholar declares: Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs BY RICHARD SCHEININ San Jose Mercury News, Published Sunday, Sept. 16, 2001 Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise. But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom? We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.'' Yusuf, whose articles about Islam are published internationally, talked about the attacks, the hysteria that he fears could grip the United States, and the role that Muslims and others must play in opposing violence. ``We've got to get to some deeper core values that are commonly shared,'' he said. Q Why would anyone do what the hijackers did? A Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. It's like some misguided Irish using Catholicism as an excuse for blowing up English people. They're not martyrs, it's as simple as that. Q Because? A You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil. Q What role should American Muslims have in opposing this brand of violent Islam? A I think that the Muslims -- and I really feel this strongly -- have to reject the discourse of anger. Because there is a lot of anger in the Muslim communities around the world about the oppressive conditions that many Muslims find themselves in. But we have to reject the discourse of anger and we have to move to a higher moral ground, recognizing that the desire to blame others leads to anger and eventually to wrath, neither of which are rungs on a spiritual ladder to God. It's times like these that we really need to become introspective. The fact that there are any Muslims -- no matter how statistically insignificant their numbers -- who consider these acts to be religious acts is in and of itself shocking. And therefore we as Muslims have to ask the question, ``How is it that our religious leadership has failed to reach these people with the true message of Islam?'' Because the acts of these criminals have indicted an entire religion in the hearts and minds of millions. These people are so bankrupt that all they have to offer is destruction. Q Why do some people regard the hijackers as martyrs? A That's an abomination. These are mass murderers, pure and simple. It's like Christians in this country who blow up abortion clinics or kill abortion doctors. I don't think anyone in the Christian community, except a very extreme fringe, would condone that as an acceptable Christian response. In the same way, there's no Muslim who understands his religion at all who would condone this. One of the worst crimes in Islam is brigandry -- highway robbery, or today we'd say armed robbery -- because it disrupts the sense of well-being and security among civilians. Q Suicide bombers have cited a Koranic verse that says, ``Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.'' A That is meant for people who are legitimately defending the lands of Islam or fighting under legitimate state authority against a tyrannical leader. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in the authority of government. Imam Malik, an early Islamic legal authority, said that 60 years of oppression under an unjust ruler is better than one hour of anarchy. Q Then why is there such strong support in parts of the world for the attacks? A Because we're dealing in an age of ignorance and an age of anomie, the loss of social order. And people are very confused and they're impoverished. What Americans are feeling now, this has been business as usual for Lebanese people, Palestinian people, Bosnian people. Q What about Israeli people? A Certainly the fear element is there for Israeli people -- that's true, and the terror that they've felt. And there are still a lot of Jewish people alive who remember the fear and terror of what happened in Europe, so that's not far from people's memories. It seems at some point, the cycles of violence have to stop. It's a type of insanity, especially when we're dealing with nuclear power. People are saying that this was an attack on civilization -- and that is exactly the point. And I think the question we all have to ask is whether indiscriminate retaliation is going to help preserve civilization. The perpetrators of this and, really, all acts of terror are people who hate too much. There's a verse in the Koran that says do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Being just is closer to piety. The evil of wrath is that justice and mercy are lost. Q How do you explain Palestinians and others celebrating the attacks in the streets? A When you see ignorant people in the streets, rejoicing -- the Prophet condemned it. It's rejoicing at the calamities of your enemies, and Islam prohibits that. They do have a lot of anger toward America, because America produces much of Israel's military hardware and so many American tax dollars go to support Israel. You have a lot of animosity in the Arab world. But the vast majority of Arabs are horrified by what's happened. Q The concept of jihad has been widely used to justify violence. A Jihad means struggle. The Prophet said the greatest jihad is the struggle of a man against his own evil influences. It also refers to what Christians call a ``just war,'' which is fought against tyranny or oppression -- but under a legitimate state authority. Q What is the Arabic word for martyr? A Shaheed. It means witness. The martyr is the one who witnesses the truth and gives his life for it. There are people in this country like Martin Luther King who would be considered a martyr for his cause. Also, if your home, your family, your property or your land or religion is threatened, then you may defend it with your life. That person is a martyr. But so is anybody who dies of terminal illness; it's a martyr's death. Because it's such a purification that whatever wrongs they once did, they're now in a state of purity. And the greatest martyr in the eyes of God is the one who stands in the presence of a tyrant and speaks the truth and is killed for it. He is martyred for his tongue. Q What does Islam say about suicide? A Suicide is haram in Islam. It's prohibited, like a mortal sin. And murder is haram. And to kill civilians is murder. Q What is a martyr's reward? A The Prophet said that a martyr who dies doesn't have a reckoning on the Day of Judgment. It's an act through which he is forgiven. But the Prophet also said that there are people who kill in the name of Islam and go to hell. And when he was asked why, he said, ``Because they weren't fighting truly for the sake of God.'' If there are any martyrs in this affair it would certainly be those brave firefighters and police that went in there to save human lives and in that process lost their own. Richard Scheinin can be contacted at (408) 920-5069 or by e-mail at rscheinin@sjmercury.com.
Just a few names of prominant scholars who condemned terrorism: * "Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts." Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001) *The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)." Sept. 27, 2001 fatwa, signed by: Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar) Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council *"Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime." Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London. Cited in Arab News, Sept. 28, 2001. *"It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to Praise those who kill innocent people." Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. Cited in NY Times, Sept. 28, 2001. *"What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in." King Abdullah II, of Jordan; cited in Middle East Times, Sept. 28, 2001. *Ingrid Mattson, a professor of Islamic studies and Muslim-Christian relations at Hartford Seminary in Hartford, said there was no basis in Islamic law or sacred text for Mr. bin Laden's remarks. "The basic theological distortion is that any means are permitted to achieve the end of protesting against perceived oppression." Dr. Ingrid Mattson, a practicing Muslim. I will post some more statements by prominant Islamic leaders condemning terrorism...
Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians: "The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15)." MSANews, September 14, 2001, http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/200109/20010917.15.html Arabic original in al-Quds al-Arabi (London), September 14, 2001, p. 2, http://www.alquds.co.uk/Alquds/2001/09Sep/14 Sep Fri/Quds02.pdf Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.: "All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. ... [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. ... [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means." The Washington Post, October 11, 2001, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40545-2001Oct10.html Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt: "Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack." Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001 Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt: "There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle]." Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 20 - 26 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was "horrified" by the attack and expressed "condolences and sadness": "[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. ... [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world." Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 - 19 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/551/fo2.htm Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi‘i Muslim radicals in Lebanon, said he was "horrified" by these "barbaric ... crimes": "Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. ... Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes." Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001 ‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia: "Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur'an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth." http://saudiembassy.net/press_release/01-spa/09-15-Islam.htm Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia: "Any attack on innocent people is unlawful and contrary to shari'a (Islamic law). ... Muslims must safeguard the lives, honor and property of Christians and Jews. Attacking them contradicts shari'a." Agence France Presse, December 4, 2001 Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a prominent religious scholar in Qatar: "Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts. Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur’anic verse which reads: ‘Who so ever kills a human being [as punishment] for [crimes] other than manslaughter or [sowing] corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind’ (Al-Ma’idah:32)." http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article25.shtml See also Qaradawi's web-site: www.qaradawi.net Ayatollah Ali Khamene’i, supreme jurist-ruler of Iran: "Killing of people, in any place and with any kind of weapons, including atomic bombs, long-range missiles, biological or chemical weopons, passenger or war planes, carried out by any organization, country or individuals is condemned. ... It makes no difference whether such massacres happen in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Deir Yassin, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq or in New York and Washington." Islamic Republic News Agency, September 16, 2001, http://www.irna.com/en/hphoto/010916000000.ehp.shtml President Muhammad Khatami of Iran: "The horrific terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, in the United States were perpetrated by cult of fanatics who had self-mutilated their ears and tongues, and could only communicate with perceived opponents through carnage and devastation." Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001, reported in The New York Times, November 10, 2001, http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/10/international/10KHAT.html League of Arab States: "The General-Secretariat of the League of Arab States shares with the people and government of the United States of America the feelings of revulsion, horror and shock over the terrorist attacks that ripped through the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, inflicting heavy damage and killing and wounding thousands of many nationalities. These terrorist crimes have been viewed by the League as inadmissible and deserving all condemnation. Divergence of views between the Arabs and the United States over the latter’s foreign policy on the Middle East crisis does in no way adversely affect the common Arab attitude of compassion with the people and government of the United States at such moments of facing the menace and ruthlessness of international terrorism. In more than one statement released since the horrendous attacks, the League has also expressed deep sympathy with the families of the victims. In remarks to newsmen immediately following the tragic events, Arab League Secretary-General Amre Moussa described the feelings of the Arab world as demonstrably sympathetic with the American people, particularly with families and individuals who lost their loved ones. "It is indeed tormenting that any country or people or city anywhere in the world be the scene of such disastrous attacks," he added. While convinced that it is both inconceivable and lamentable that such a large-scale, organised terrorist campaign take place anywhere, anytime, the League believes that the dreadful attacks against WTC and the Pentagon unveil, time and again, that the cancer of terrorism can be extensively damaging if left unchecked. It follows that there is a pressing and urgent need to combat world terrorism. In this context, an earlier call by [Egyptian] President Hosni Mubarak for convening an international conference to draw up universal accord on ways and means to eradicate this phenomenon and demonstrate international solidarity is worthy of active consideration. The Arabs have walked a large distancein the fight against cross-border terrorism by concluding in April 1998 the Arab Agreement on Combating Terrorism." September 17, 2001, http://www.leagueofarabstates.org/E_Perspectives_17_09_01.asp Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference: "Following the bloody attacks against major buildings and installations in the United States yesterday, Tuesday, September 11, 2001, Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, secretary-general of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), stated that he was shocked and deeply saddened when he heard of those attacks which led to the death and injury of a very large number of innocent American citizens. Dr. Belkeziz said he was denouncing and condemning those criminal and brutal acts that ran counter to all covenants, humanitarian values and divine religions foremost among which was Islam." Press Release, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, September 12, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/press/english/september 2001/america on attack.htm Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers: "The Conference strongly condemned the brutal terror acts that befell the United States, caused huge losses in human lives from various nationalities and wreaked tremendous destruction and damage in New York and Washington. It further reaffirmed that these terror acts ran counter to the teachings of the divine religions as well as ethical and human values, stressed the necessity of tracking down the perpetrators of these acts in the light of the results of investigations and bringing them to justice to inflict on them the penalty they deserve, and underscored its support of this effort. In this respect, the Conference expressed its condolences to and sympathy with the people and government of the United States and the families of the victims in these mournful and tragic circumstances." Final Communique of the Ninth Extraordinary Session of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers, October 10, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/english/fm/All Download/frmex9.htm Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, Head of the Directorate of Religious Affairs of Turkey: "Any human being, regardless of his ethnic and religious origin, will never think of carrying out such a violent, evil attack. Whatever its purpose is, this action cannot be justified and tolerated." Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, "A Message on Ragaib Night and Terrorism," September 21, 2001, http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/duyurular/regaibing.htm Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkish author: "Islam does not encourage any kind of terrorism; in fact, it denounces it. Those who use terrorism in the name of Islam, in fact, have no other faculty except ignorance and hatred." Harun Yahya, "Islam Denounces Terrorism," http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, Pakistani-American Muslim leader: "The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people. Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims' relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people." "Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi," http://www.icna.org/wtc_islahi.htm Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author: "Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures." "The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists," http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/masud/ISLAM/ahm/recapturing.htm Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims: "We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts." Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001, http://muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html 15 American Muslim organizations: "We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians." Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001, http://www.icna.org/wtc_pr.htm American Muslim Political Coordination Council: "American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts." http://capwiz.com/cair/issues/alert/?alertid=49818&type=CU&azip= Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance: "These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families." http://www.amaweb.org/AMA Condemns.html Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader: "Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. ... You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil." San Jose Mercury News, September 15, 2001, http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm Nuh Ha Mim Keller, American Muslim author: "Muslims have nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to hide, and should simply tell people what their scholars and religious leaders have always said: first, that the Wahhabi sect has nothing to do with orthodox Islam, for its lack of tolerance is a perversion of traditional values; and second, that killing civilians is wrong and immoral." "Making the World Safe for Terrorism," September 30, 2001, http://66.34.131.5/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization: "As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam." http://www.muslimsagainstterrorism.org/aboutus.html Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia: "New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of "jihad" ("struggle") - jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad – "struggle with one’s own ego and false pride." I don’t ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God’s mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?" "Where Was God on September 11?," http://www.virginia.edu/~soasia/newsletter/Fall01/God.html Ali Khan, professor of law, Washburn University School of Law: "To the most learned in the text of the Quran, these verses must be read in the context of many other verses that stipulate the Islamic law of war---a war that the Islamic leader must declare after due consultation with advisers. For the less learned, however, these verses may provide the motivation and even the plot for a merciless strike against a self-chosen enemy." "Attack on America: An Islamic Perspective, September 17, 2001, http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew29.htm Muqtedar Khan, assistant professor of political science, Adrian College, Michigan, USA: "What happened on September 11th in New York and Washington DC will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values. The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are unIslamic. This is truly sad. ... If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question, would Muhammad (pbuh) sanction such an act? While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85)." "Memo to American Muslims," October 5, 2001, http://www.ijtihad.org/memo.htm Dr. Alaa Al-Yousuf, Bahraini economist and political activist: "On Friday, 14 September [the first Friday prayers after 11 September], almost the whole world expressed its condemnation of the crime and its grief for the bereaved families of the victims. Those who abstained or, even worse, rejoiced, will have joined the terrorists, not in the murder, but in adding to the incalculable damage on the other victims of the atrocity, namely, Islam as a faith, Muslims and Arabs as peoples, and possibly the Palestinian cause. The terrorists and their apologists managed to sully Islam as a faith both in the eyes of many Muslims and non-Muslims alike." Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London, http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm Dr. S. Parvez Manzoor, Swedish-based Muslim author: "If these acts of terror indeed have been perpetrated by Muslim radicals or fundamentalists, they have reaped nothing but eternal damnation, shame and ignominy. For nothing, absolutely nothing, could remotely be advanced as an excuse for these barbaric acts. They represent a total negation of Islamic values, an utter disregard of our fiqhi tradition, and a slap in the face of the Ummah. They are in total contrast to what Islamic reason, compassion and faith stand for. Even from the more mundane criteria of common good, the maslaha of the jurists, these acts are treasonous and suicidal. Islamic faith has been so callously and casually sacrificed at the altar of politics, a home-grown politics of parochial causes, primeval passions, self-endorsing piety and messianic terror." Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London, http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian Islamic activist and former deputy prime minister: "Never in Islam's entire history has the action of so few of its followers caused the religion and its community of believers to be such an abomination in the eyes of others. Millions of Muslims who fled to North America and Europe to escape poverty and persecution at home have become the object of hatred and are now profiled as potential terrorists. And the nascent democratic movements in Muslim countries will regress for a few decades as ruling autocrats use their participation in the global war against terrorism to terrorize their critics and dissenters. This is what Mohammed Atta and his fellow terrorists and sponsors have done to Islam and its community worldwide by their murder of innocents at the World Trade Center in New York and the Defense Depart-ment in Washington. The attack must be condemned, and the condemnation must be without reservation." Anwar Ibrahim, "Growth of Democracy Is the Answer to Terrorism," International Herald Tribune, October 11, 2001, http://www.iht.com/articles/35281.htm Ziauddin Sardar, British Muslim author: "The failure of Islamic movements is their inability to come to terms with modernity, to give modernity a sustainable home-grown expression. Instead of engaging with the abundant problems that bedevil Muslim lives, the Islamic prescription consists of blind following of narrow pieties and slavish submission to inept obscurantists. Instead of engagement with the wider world, they have made Islam into an ethic of separation, separate under-development, and negation of the rest of the world." Ziauddin Sardar, "Islam has become its own enemy," October 21, 2001, http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,577942,00.html Khaled Abou El Fadl, Kuwaiti-Egyptian-American legal scholar: "It would be disingenuous to deny that the Qur'an and other Islamic sources offer possibilities of intolerant interpretation. Clearly these possibilities are exploited by the contemporary puritans and supremacists. But the text does not command such intolerant readings. Historically, Islamic civilization has displayed a remarkable ability to recognize possibilities of tolerance, and to act upon these possibilities." Khaled Abou El Fadl, "The Place of Tolerance in Islam: On Reading the Qur'an -- and Misreading It," Boston Review, December 2001/January 2002, http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR26.6/elfadl.html Bernard Haykel, assistant professor of Islamic law at New York University: "According to Islamic law there are at least six reasons why Bin Laden's barbaric violence cannot fall under the rubric of jihad: 1) Individuals and organizations cannot declare a jihad, only states can; 2) One cannot kill innocent women and children when conducting a jihad; 3) One cannot kill Muslims in a jihad; 4) One cannot fight a jihad against a country in which Muslims can freely practise their religion and proselytize Islam; 5) Prominent Muslim jurists around the world have condemned these attacks and their condemnation forms a juristic consensus (ijma') against Bin Laden's actions (This consensus renders his actions un-Islamic); 6) The welfare and interest of the Muslim community (maslaha) is being harmed by Bin Laden's actions and this equally makes them un-Islamic." The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, October 8, 2001, http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/08/op.htm#2 ------------------------------------------------------------- See other collections of statements: Omid Safi, Colgate University, "Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th," http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm Tim Lubin, Washington and Lee University, "Islamic Responses to the Sept. 11 Attack," http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/islamonWTC.htm The Becket Fund, "Osama Bin Laden Hijacked Four Airplanes and a Religion," October 17, 2001, http://www.becketfund.org/other/MuslimAd.html Islam for Today, "Muslims Against Terrorism," http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm
StupidMoniker, maybe if your approach to the topic was more civil and not in a negative way, you wouldnt have been responded to in a negative manner. Your statement about the QURAN oppressing women and not letting them drive has been proven faulty by aggie. And most of your other issues with islam seem to be based around arabs and not muslims. You claim that Saudi's dont let women drive. Correct, but then again we didnt even consider women as human in the United States for QUITE the while. Islam gave women MANY MANY rights. For example, in pre islam arabia, female children were buried alive. Mohammad (pbuh) revealed to the people that this practice is AGAINST islam and it is prohibited to this day. Some of these practices still go on in many "democratic countries" Your issue with democracy, well Its not true that all democracies are great, and all monarchies are bad. Each group has the good and each group has a bad. For example, the UAE, Brunei, Jordan. All monarchies, but you hear mostly good stuff from them, and they are all majority muslim populated countries. And now for the hatred towards Jews. Let me repeat this. Muslims are commanded BY THE QURAN to treat the Jews with respect, both the Jews and the Christians, because they are recievers of the same message as us, and they are from the same descendents (Abraham and Jesus). The only hatred that most muslims have is towards the Israeli government and anyone that supports them, and there are tons of reasons for that, and we can sit here and argue the reasons for that, but surely they are as cultural and militaristic as they are religious fights. And as someone stated earlier, the verses in the quran are taking out of context, especially about Violence and war. Right the quran does teach us to defend ourselves. Now any man in his right mind does that. And if you cant handle that our religion teaches us to fight for our rights and our liberties, then i would have to say that you are hypocrytical. Because the right to fight for freedom etc etc are pretty much the main things that you and I as an American yearn for. So if you can say that We can fight for our freedom, but when the quran says to do the same thing, its straight up hypocrasy. I hope some of this helped. And you know the stuff i just said, if you would have just attended the little thing at the mosque, You would have gotten much better responses and had a chance to understand Islam the right way from someone who actually knows the quran in and out unlike most of us on the board. Peace.
Facts are neither positive nor negative, they exist. My original post was a statement of facts, some of which I later clarified, but none of which were incorrect, at worst they were not totally clear. Actually, Islam does oppress women, especially in terms of dress. I can certainly name more countries than Saudi Arabia that follow that bit of Islamic law. I never said the QURAN oppresses women, only that Islam opresses women. Given that, I think one can say that Islam opresses women, and that was in my original post. As I mentioned to AR, I am talking about now, not what happened tens or even hundreds of years ago. Women in America have all of the rights that men do. In fact, with the whole abortion thing, they have a couple more rights than men. There is not one right a man has that a woman does not have. That is not the case throughout all of Islam. I think people should be given the chance to self govern. Those monarchies are fine countries, but I think the people, if given the choice, would like a sa in how they are governed. Take an opinion poll of Muslims in any Middle-Eastern state and ask them how they feel about the Jews. I guarantee the majority will not have a positive view of them. It is nice that the QURAN teaches to treat Jews with respect (though I don't know that calling for special taxes against Jews and Christians is all that fair or respectful), but I am talking about modern practice. The Fact is that a majority of Middle-Eastern Muslims hate Jews. I said that the QURAN teaches more violence than the New Testament. That is a fact. You can talk all you want about if it is in the right context, is in tune with American values, and anything else you might want to bring up. I was jumped on for saying that the QURAN teaches more violence than the New Testament. If you disagree with that, let me know and we can go through and find every call to violence in both volumes. It would be hard for me to goo to a program in Houston since I live in California. It is funny to me that you signed off with Peace considering your reply to me at the beginning of this thread. Maybe I know more than you think or care to admit.
The Quran IS the most basic constitution for Islam, so saying "Islam" or "Koran" means basically the same thing in this case. Anyways, as far as how women "dress", there is nothing in the Koran that prescribes to women how to dress without doing the same for men. The only thing DEMANDED from BOTH men and women in the Koran is to "dress and act modestly". The only specific mention of anything resembling a required dress code in the Koran is for women to properly cover their "chest area", meaning no cleavage is on display. Other than that, "dressing modestly" is the general prescription for a dress code for BOTH men and women (and yes, men are specifically mentioned in the same verse, they don't get an exemption). Indeed, this was viewed as rather a broad statement that has been largely left to interpretation by Muslim scholars, leading to the Wahhabi interpretation of the "burqa", others interpreting it as the "hijab", or the headscarf, while others saying that it means nothing more than a woman dressing modestly and covering her body in a fashion that wouldn't attract unwanted attention. Agreed Sadly, probably so, because of the circumstances more than anything else. I don't know how you quantify that, but yes there are plenty of references to violence/wars etc. in pretty much all religious volumes. Nothing new there... Anyways, I think this thread has outlasted its usefulness since the event thatboyz was referring to is already over. Good discussion though, so thanks everyone.
Most of those were nothing but your skewed opinion of what Islam is, and not what the facts prove Islam to be. You never said that the Quran oppresses women, but that Islam does? Do you even understand what you just said. Thats like saying The bible doesnt teach child rape, christianity does. One can not say that Islam opressses women, People do. People who are uneducated and who do not know that Islam teaches a women to be an equal partner. Education of women is mandatory in Islam, Women have inheritance laws, The punishment for raping a women is one of the strictest in Islam, same is the punishment for cheating on your wife. I like it how you just take single incidents and rub it all in. IF you want to compare Rights, sure. The right of a women over a man in islam? Men ARE FORBIDDEN TO LOOK AT WOMEN, in islam. You get that, i think thats a little more worse than women having to cover their boobs. On the other hand men also have to cover their bodies and women are allowed to look at men. There is not one right that woman has that a man does not have in Islam. And please for the sake of argument, do not confuse Islam with culture and tradition I think people should be given the right to self govern too. That is why many of these monarchies hold regular meetings with the people and discuss the issues that go on in the country. Its just like a damn democracy, our freaking vote doesnt even count directly, its what the big people in DC decide. Just like that in Islam the leaders of tribes of people decide wassup and take it up to the man in charge, whomever it be. And i still dont think Monarchies are the islamic way at all. Take an opinion poll of Jews in any Israeli city and ask them how they feel about the Muslims? Your arguments are flawed. Ofcourse your gunnna get hatred as a response in both cases, because there is a freaking war going on. The tax part, lets see. When the Christians took over jerusalem they called for the killing of all the Jews. No questions asked. But when the Muslims took over they gave em 3 options, Leave the city, Convert to Islam, or stay in peace but pay jizya, which is a Protection tax. THE MUSLIMS ALSO PAYED THIS TAX. IT WAS JUST CALLED a different thing. And that is what ISLAM teaches, now i dont know or care what the "new" "modern" practice teach. The Fact is that ISLAM does not teach hatred for JEWS. and Middle eastern muslims are only a percentage of the 2 billion, so why look at a small section and establish that as the norm for the rest??? The QURAN does not teach violence. There is a difference in violence and protection and defense. You were not jumped on for saying that it teaches more violence than the new testement, heck no one was even comparing the two. You just squeezed that part in after saying YES IT DOES TEACH VIOLENCE. Maybe you do know more, but unfortunately, your not showing it in any way.
Respect them as well, and do not talk smalk or discriminate their religions. Because doing so will only cause them to do the same onto our religion.
I'll address this specifically, but it goes to the heart of the rest of your post. The Quran is not the same thing as Islam and the Bible is not the same thing as Christianity. Just because something is not in a holy text, does not mean that the religion does not teach that thing. There is nothing about abortion in the Bible, AFAIK. Christian churches teach that abortion is wrong. There may not be anything on the oppression of women in the Quran, but many sects of Islam, in modern practice, treat women in a way that is not as good as the treatment of men. To me, that means Islam oppresses women. You can say that is Islam as a culture, not Islam as a religion if you want, but the people teaching the oppressing are Islamic religious leaders basing it on their interpretation of the Quran. EDIT: To further clarify my point I'll give an example from Christianity. Jesus never said anything about treating homosexuals in any way worse than heterosexuals. In modern practice, Christianity oppresses homosexuals. This is not based on a proper understanding on how God wants us to act, but it is the pratice taught by many Christian religious leaders based on things taken from the Bible (mostly from Leviticus). What I originally posted: I don't see how you can say there was no comparison of the Quran and the New Testament being made. I made it in my very first post of the thread, and the first post that addressed any of the questions put out there.
Once again, it is interpretation. In the Bible, there are multiple places where God states that life begins in the womb. A good example would be in the book of Judges where Samson's mother stops drinking wine upon conception because Samson would be a Nazirite who wouldn't consume alcohol. Another example is in the book of Jeremiah where God knew Jeremiah by name while he was still in the womb. Some might look at those passages and say that it is still a question of when life begins in the womb. To answer that, let us look at the passage that in my opinion is the clearest evidence in the Bible that abortion is a sin. In the book of Luke, it states that John the Baptist recognized Jesus while both of them were still in the womb. Elizabeth (the mother of John the Baptist) was six months pregnant when Mary initially conceived. When Mary went to visit Elizabeth after her blessed conception, John the Baptist, while in the womb, recognized Jesus. That would mean that Mary was in the first trimester when John the Baptist recognized Jesus. We can further translate that to say that the identity of a human is discernable as early as the first trimester. That translates to say that life begins in the first trimester which makes abortion immoral according to the Bible.
Ok, let me make this clear. ISLAM does not teach what you claim it teaches, because Islam is followed LITERALLY from the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet. Now if somoene doesnt follow that which is in the quran and sunnah he is not a muslim and he is not following ISLAM, so then HE IS NOT REPRESENTING THE MuSLIMS PEOPLE. And hence, ISLAM is not the religion that is teaching that thing, whatever we are talking about. Culture and religion are 2 different things. Yes culture is based on religion, but that is one of the reasons why we try to differentiate ourselves as MUSLIMS first then as arabs, indians, americans, etc etc. So that our culture is not mixed with our religion(which does not have any problems, thank you very much) The people teaching the oppression are not following islam and will be punished by god. They are not doing this opression based on the religion islam, rather they are doing this against islam based on their own whims and desires. Right, you added the comparison to the new testament and the old one. The original post or the issue is not comparing either. If you wish to compare and contrast islam and christianity im sure you can start a new thread, and ill be sure to post what I feel in there.
