Really? Seriously? This is his criminal past? Sorry -- the guys a loon. He should be turned over to Iraqi justice for what he did. I'm not so sure that he, and his team who enabled this, should not be tried for treason for participating in this as representatives of the US military. But, IMO, a guy should not be automatically excluded from military service for such a relatively minor criminal offense. Or for being a high school drop out. I'm with mulligun on this. Different issues. And I disagree with the military's exclusion of gays.
its not two different issues, the guy was not qualified to get into the military, regardless of how light the criminal offense was, he needed a special clause to get in. meanwhile, perfectly able citizens are not allowed in and even being kicked out for coming forward and saying they are gay.
No offense, but I don't think it's insulting to gays at all. If they are offended by that, they need to grow some thicker skin. I don't think lowering enlistment standards has anything to do with allowing/not allowing openly-homosexual people in the military. They're two different issues, enlistment standards may be lowered because of the need of people in the armed forces, not allowing openly-homosexual people in the military has nothing to do with whether or not the homosexuals are "worthy" or "good-enough" to be in the military, and I would say they are good enough to be there. If they enlisted and volunteered to serve this country, that's honorable and they deserve to be there. However, once again, this policy is in effect to prevent problems that would arise. The reason this is different from high school dropouts is because sexuality invokes emotions/issues that affect person-to-person relationships. Not saying it's right, but I'm saying it's not intended to be an insult.
see my response to bnb he needed a special moral character waiver edit: its not clear that alcohol pocession was the only offense, that was the offense just before he joined
Since you have never served, I will explain something to you. waivers are very common. You need to get them for tons of stuff, including tattoos for USMC OCS admission. If you admit to ever smoking pot you need a waiver.
Do you understand "lowering". You are claiming it is low since he needed a waiver. What about this case makes you think it is lower?
Obviously. You were originally making some case that by letting in a guy who was a drop out and drank alcohol, we had an open door military or something. This has been going on for a long time. Which is why I gave you the example of my dad.
fmullegun: I'll ask again since you apparently missed my previous post. Are you for or against gays serving openly in the military?
like I said, alcohol pocession wasn't his only offense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_D._Green Green grew up in Seabrook, Texas and moved to Midland, Texas when he was 14. According to school officials, he dropped out of high school in 2002 after completing the 10th grade and moved to Denver City, Texas, where he earned his high school equivalency in 2003. Days after a January 2005 arrest for alcohol possession, Green enlisted in the U.S. Army. In doing so, he was granted a moral character waiver for prior drug and alcohol related offenses that might have otherwise disqualified him. Green graduated from Infantry Training Brigade and was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Kentucky. According to a military spokesperson and a criminal complaint filed in connection with the charges, Green was honorably discharged from the military "due to antisocial personality disorder but before the military was aware of the incident."[1] Green was stationed in Iraq from September 2005 to April 2006 and discharged in May 2006.[2]
Last thing, the world is different from 1964 when your dad joined. the us government is the leader in the fight for equality in this country, its usually the first organization to integrate. the army is lagging on this issue, I can understand the morale argument. not everyone in the military is ready to deal with the issue and that's a perfectly legit argument. the military isn't the place to start social experimenting. but all kinds of business have openly gay people in their workforce, i think the majority of the military is ready also.
Wait...so he had his High School Equivalency? Look...there are strong arguments why the Don't Ask policy is bunk (in fact, I haven't heard any convincing ones why it's right)...but I don't think this guy is your poster boy on lowered military standards -- except with hindsight. I don't see how his past was a good predictor of what he ended up doing. Unless there's more info out there I don't know. But I also I don't think gays in the military is a 'lowered standards' type thing anyway. If the Don't Ask policy is lifted, it would (and should) be done so on humanitarian/moral/equality grounds. Not because they need more people and can't get any other 'better' recruits. When you're short recruits, you might accept some you otherwise wouldn't -- but gay people shouldn't be getting in by that avenue. If it's OK to be openly gay and in the military, then it should be OK whether or not they are experiencing shortages of personnel. So I'm sticking with 'different issues'
So you are saying that since the world is different that we should no longer let in high school drop outs? It seemed like that was your real problem Pure class by starting this thread on Memorial day. Well done.
yes, i started this thread really to insult your dad no the hs drop out combined with the criminal record edit: you actually pointed out that he was a dropout, I pointed out the criminal record in the first post in the words of fmullegun, one thing has nothing to do with the other
His real problem is the one you keep ignoring. It was in the thread title. Don't ask, don't tell. For the third time now, do you support or oppose gays serving openly in the military?
France confirmed this decades ago. In all seriousness, and more to the point, this is all very silly to me. Obviously one's sexual orientation has nothing to do with whether or not they will make a good soldier. If somebody is making a spectacle of themselves or is constantly discussing their sexuality, then it is conduct unbecoming regardless of sexual orientation. For the decision makers to assume that this will be a problem with homosexual soldiers is insane. To ignore a criminal history when recruiting troops is problematic. To view same along with the bar on gay troops is just disturbing.
Really? Deviance, preference, fetish, etc. We all have certain attractions that may or may not be against the norm. I've truly changed my stance, for the most part, on homosexuality. I think quite a few have, as well. But leave it in the bedroom/kitchen/wherever where it belongs. Neil Patrick Harris has been a perfect example of this.
