Man disregard the whole season of suck by Ariza, he played great the last 2 months! Wait...it seems like I've heard this before...almsot like Ariza has played this game on us....
Everyone always focuses on his offensive stats. The guy is a winner, and sacrifices his numbers to help the team win. Every scouting report, newspaper and coach (and Daryl Morey) say the same. You can't quantify what this guy does in stats, you never have. You can't fully measure defense and role playing in the box score. We all agree this team needs defensive improvement from last year. Do we really want to give up our best defender and captain? (defensive leadership affects the team culture, all the championship teams had a defensive attitude.) I think most of us can agree Bruce Bowen was important to that Spurs championship dynasty. His career offensive numbers were worse than Battier's look: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3167/career;_ylt=AkEWwZQW0Zn9d0ipPLsZx1UkPKB4 Should he have been traded because his Fg% and rim scoring were poor? I don't think so, because he had offensive threats around him. (like Battier) It's team game and you win with team players would fill roles (Battier) others won't do and depend on others to fill their roles (Yao, Scola, Brooks, Martin).
It was a noticeable change brought on by a change in the team's makeup. It would also have to be twenty-one games of fluke. I agree that you have to be careful on these things, but disregarding it to the level some of you are reeks of stubbornness. You made up your mind about Trevor and there was nothing changing it. I don't think it would be hard to find posts I made calling for Trevor to be traded before last year's deadline. His play once we go Martin changed my mind.
I am not referencing your comments about individual posters, but I think your overall point is probably valid. The day the Rockets passed on getting Gay the Battier hate started. I think there is a pool of fans who still hold this move against DM, and probably, short of winning a championship, will never get over it.
You will surprise yourself and it miht take you a decade. Shane used to be a basketball player. He used to be opportunistic, run the floor,post, shoot the mid range jumper. Somewhere in there, he stopped being a basketball player and turned into a specialist. People think i hate battier, i don't. I thought in memphis, he was more complete and could be a 15ppg 3rd option here,right now. For some reason, maybe it was jvg, he just turned into a spot up shooter who needs alot of space. He's always been a good defender because he is smart and uses his size well, but when tracy and yao were rolling, he should have had the easiest 15ppg in the league with the space those twon were creating. Go and look what I said when the trade was made. Now, i did think they were getting something else back at the time, but ok, I'm down. Then the playoffs come around and the 3rd highest paid player on the squad was basically a no show against the jazz. He had 1 good game and took a leave for the rest of the series and thats when I turned and wanted him gone. People have made excuse after excuse of why he cant. I rather believe he just don't want to. I have never played for a coach that has told a player not to cut hard when the defender turns his head.I've watched battier countless times not perform basic basketball after a entry pass. Go and watch the entry passes vs la and watch kobe. After th entry pass and the cut, kobe will turn and go check yao ming underwear size while shane just jogs to the other side like he's hiding. Wath how many times kobe will just wreck havoc on the offense because shane doesn't even want to be a factor. This isn't hate, its just the stone cold truth and i believe it has hurt the team big time in the playoffs when points are at a premiuim. So say what you will about my hate for shane, but i was a supporter of shane from college to memphis and to the first year or so with the rockets, but now, i think his time has passed. Its not for me to say so, only morey. The only thing is about the so called sell high everyone wants to praise morey of is when they rockets could have sold real high on shane last offseason, they didn't. Now his value is so low, his value is only his contract, not his play.
shane battier should not play more than 15-20 minutes at most on a contending basketball team. if he plays more than that for us, we ain't a title contender, but a playoff contender. shane is a liability offensively most of the time, and his defense is declining like for bruce bowen. he's a great locker room guy nowadays, but his days of 35 minutes per game should be over.
Why not just look at his stats on the Lakers? Why would they be that different from his stats with Yao? Also, you didn't list his salary.
Well, mainly because he was only playing 24 minutes with the Lakers, so it wouldn't be that reflective. His per 36 minutes stats with the lakers were 13ppg, 6.3 rpg, 2.5 spg, 46%FG. I will take that even with his salary, which is comparable to Lowry and Scola's salary to production ratio. Also he was only 23 at the time and the contract pretty much goes through his prime (age 25-29). If you want more you can look at his 36/min stats in the 24 games the previous season after he was traded to the Lakers. They were even better. 13ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 2.2 spg, 52%FG. It's fairly obvious, his non-scoring related stats are there. He's active and having an impact even without scoring. His efficiency when he's not asked or required to do so much (like when Martin came to the team) is good. Would have improved with Yao, but we'll never get to see it.
If this were the case, one would expect Battier to have a negative impact on Yao's numbers-- causing him to score less, face more double teams, shoot less efficiently and turn the ball over more with Battier than he does without. 82games.com happens to have some handy stats on how a player does overall vs. how he does when paired with player X. they actually have it for all 3 years in which Yao played with Battier 06-09. http://www.82games.com/0809/ppairs0809.htm The numbers show that Yao's personal numbers are in fact the same or a bit better with Battier than they are without him on the floor, and that's true for all 3 years. Might be a fluke, but 3 years worth of data show a trend. Also, comparing how the team does with Yao but no Battier vs. with both Yao and Battier again shows the team does a bit better with both on the floor than it does with only Yao. In 08/09 for example, the Rockets were 10.1 points better than the opponent with both Yao and Battier. They were only 5.8 points better than the opponent with only Yao but no Battier. Whatever Battier isn't doing, it seems overall his presence has a positive impact on a team with Yao on the court. That's the thing about the "eyeball" test. Sure you may spot one flaw in a guy's game and what that does, but if you are obsessed over that one thing, you'll ignore other positive things-- like the fact that Battier throws a good post-entry pass, shoots the open 3, doesn't turn the ball over, doesn't drible the clock down, etc. An objective measurement would also help compare the magnitude of the positives and negatives to a guys game.
I don't disregard his good play. However I'm also not going to disregard his poor play. Quite simply we don't need much from the 5th option on offense when the top 4 guys are Brooks, Martin, Scola, and Yao. I trust Battier to be smart and play within his role than I do Ariza to resist the urge to jack shots.
I know those numbers, i have looked at them and they are relative to the other players on the floor. One year mcgrady and barry was the best roket pair and 1 yr it was head and yao. In 08-09 it was yao and artest. So i guess that means they should have kept artest ince he performed the best with yao? Also, balance it out vs the teams over .500 who are normally the better teams. I say that because in the playoffs, those are the teams the rockets will go against. In fact, look at battier +/1,on/off court numbers in the playoffs vs the regular season every year he has been in the playoffs with any team. 03-04 -15.3 memphis 04-05 -11.2 memphis 05-06 +1.9 memphis 06-07 -2.6 houston 07-08 -5.1 houston 08-09 -8.4 houston Those are his roland ratings and thats my problem. In the playoffs when its money time, he's a no show. Now if you want to out hustle people during the regular season, thats cool and battier is great at that, but when the heat is up on full blast, he's been terrible simply put.
"The on court +/- number repesents the team's net points with the player on the floor per 48 minutes, while the off court number is the team's net with the player off the floor per 48 minutes. The Roland Rating is the difference between the two, with a positive number indicating the team has played better with the player than without." I googled Roland Ratings and the first thing that popped up was the 04-05 regular season with Battier sitting pretty in the top 15. Ahead of Amare, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Lebron James, Billups, Joe Johnson, Yao, McGrady and Shaq. I can't even navigate this site, which either proves I am utterly r****ded...or it took a heck of a long time to data mine for some advanced stat in a witch hunt.
Sortable "Roland Ratings" While we never advocate reliance on 'overall rating' type metrics for players since we believe that "fit" within a team's roster and coaching schemes, financial considerations and other factors play a considerable part in player evaluation, it can be useful to gauge quickly how a player stacks up in certain statistical categories. The main components of the 'Roland Ratings' are a production measure (a variant of John Hollinger's PER rating) for a player's own stats versus the counterpart player on the other team while he is on the court, as well as a simple on court/off court plus minus. This rating is actually more of a placeholder until the more sophisticated analysis we produce is made public, but still offers a good fast read on player performance. There you go. Larsv8, i used the playoff when it really counts. Thats been my so called gripe. I really don't care about the regular season stuff, but in the playoffs when you're playing high quality teams, it measures who plays well in the spotlight and who doesn't.
You said it right , regular season. In the post season of that same year he was -11. So from +11 to -11= 22pt swing. People question why they couldn't win a playoff game.
I don't know what ass you pulled your numbers out from, but 82games (which I am not impressed with, but anyway) says (quoting with source!): Battier 07-08 + 0.4 (http://www.82games.com/ROLRTG8.HTM) 08-09 + 1.4 (http://www.82games.com/0809/ROLRTG8.HTM) In 04/05 he seemed to be in the top 15 in the league on that stat. Considering that Battier usually guards the best player on the opposing team and thus spends most of his time on the court at the same time with the star of the other team, his positive Roland ratings, if they contain an element of how he does versus the counterpart player on the other team would be even more impressive. Looks like once again you self-owned yourself by quoting these "Roland ratings".
And while we are at it, since you think you can cherry-pick playoff numbers from 82games.com (which, again, I think is pretty much a crap site), here are his win shares for the playoffs from www.basketball-reference.com: 2006-07 28 HOU NBA 7 272 12.8 .660 .637 1.3 6.3 3.8 10.3 2.4 1.8 12.8 11.2 121 104 0.4 0.3 0.8 0.135 2007-08 29 HOU NBA 6 246 9.4 .602 .578 3.1 7.5 5.2 2.1 1.4 1.6 13.8 11.2 112 110 0.2 0.2 0.4 0.079 2008-09 30 HOU NBA 13 496 11.1 .576 .512 5.2 9.9 7.6 9.7 1.6 1.4 14.1 10.3 118 107 0.6 0.5 1.1 0.110 http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/battish01.html League average for a player is 0.1 - he is above that, even though he always had to guard the opposing team's best player. WS/48 Win Shares Per 48 Minutes (available since the 1951-52 season in the NBA); an estimate of the number of wins contributed by the player per 48 minutes (league average is approximately 0.100). Anyway, lies, damned lies, and statistics. I still think you and Kwame hate Battier because you think he "acts too white". Simple as that.
Wow, thats a new one. I could care less if he acts white or whatever you're implying. There is nothing wrong with being well spoken to me. I grew up in a household with both my parents in middle class black neighborhood when there was such a thing. We had doctors,lawyers,plant workers and nurses next door and all around the neighborhood and when one of them heard the little black boys such as myself speaking poor, they were quick to correct. Now I don't know what act white is if you're half white already. It has nothing to do with that and I've said it a million times. In the playoffs, he's a no show and your stats says so. I didn't bring up 82games.com, ch did. I will be the first to say numbers don't mean alot to me, thats why i never bring them up unless someone else does. Those same numbers when brought to the forefront and analyzed are now all of a sudden null and void.
