I merely responded to your post claiming that you never made a post about him. You did. And I knew that this is the type of player you like. You like the Isiah Riders, I like the Shane Battiers. Fine!
I think it's ridiculous for people to claim that athletic players are "dumb" or are "knuckleheads." You guys also shouldn't try and pigeonhole posters as being advocates of certain types of players. It's not even all about athleticism per se, but more about being multi-dimensional and being able to impact the game in as many ways as possible. It just so happens that to be able to do that requires some degree of athleticism. Many of you have grown accustom to watching one-dimensional players, especially during the JVG era, on the Rockets, which may explain why some of you become so defensive, then start labeling other posters as this or that, and ultimately engage in name calling towards either the individual typing the post or the player that he brings up. Take Stephen Jackson, he's not in the same league as Rudy Gay or Josh Smith when it comes to athleticism, but he has a multi-dimensional skill set that allows him to maximize the impact he has on a team (See Charlotte's record before he got there and their record once he arrived). He also has the confidence to step up and be clutch when it counts the most (See all the big shots he hit for SA during their championship run with him and how he destroyed Dallas in the elimination game). OTOH, a guy like Shane Battier has some of the worst handles in the NBA at his position and can't even take advantage of being guarded by a guy 6 or 7 inches smaller than him. Moreover, for people who point to his defense on Kobe or just his general defensive impact on the game, you should also remember that it is usually negated and offset by the fact that guys like Kobe are allowed to disregard Battier and either rest or wreak havoc on the other end of the floor. To continue to use the Stephen Jackson comparison, what makes it even worse is that Jackson bounced around playing bball all over the world in different professional leagues until he finally found his niche in the NBA. Over the years, he worked hard and developed his game into what it is now. Shane Battier, for a guy who supposedly works so hard, hasn't really improved since he's been in the league. Looking at their resumes and their numbers over the years, I don't see how anybody can say that Jackson isn't a better player, harder worker, or more of a winner than Battier. Unless, of course, Shane just sucks so bad that no matter how hard he works or how much he tries, he can't improve. That's nice and all, but you didn't answer my question which was: How many playoff games did those Memphis Grizzlies ever win? If Battier gets credit for how well they did during the regular season, he should also get "credit" for how they did in the post-season. I wonder why the author of that fine propaganda piece didn't deal with this question.
Stephen Jackson is not a bad player. Still doesn't explain your obsessive Battier hate. If it weren't so un-PC, I would wonder whether yours and leebigez' distaste for Battier is in reality based on him being too much of a "black anglo-saxon" for your tastes.
Stop ducking and dodging and answer the question I raised in my previous post. For your convenience, I'll post it again. Here's what you posted "especially for me": Here what I said in response: This is the third time I've directly asked you this question. I await your response.
I sort of got mugged once. I was working the door at a bar, and this huge fight broke out ( long sotry, didn't directly involve me) inside the bar, and as we got it outside it exploded into a street brawl, and 6 or 7 cop cars showed up; and I was swinging away, and didn't get a scratch. Was ducking and sliding at all the right times, and generally felt like a god. My response is: How many playoff series did Kevin Garnett win before he joined the Boston Celtics? The team just wasn't that good, but it got significantly more wins after Battier arrived, and dropped off significantly after he left. You will argue that it was a coincidence or mainly driven by other factors. I will argue he played a big role in it. We can agree to disagree. (Actually, you can't, because you are obsessed with your Battier hate ). By the way, just noticed: AroundTheWorld is Shane Battier - really nice This is for you, Kwame and leebigez
Why are you even engaging him? He's already made up his mind about Battier, and this is a rather ridiculous discussion anyway because we're talking about a very good role player, not someone who will single-handedly change the fortunes of a team.
Oh this is just too good. Kwame you never cease to entertain me. How many wins did Battier get Memphis in the playoffs? Zero The exact same number Sjax got Charlotte as they were swept out of the playoffs by an average of 10 points a loss. His cold blooded 16 shots a game at 36%, his 17% 3pt shooting, his 4.3 turnovers a game really put them over the top. ROFL, tremendous argument.
Battier never had a good PER. PER is an overrated stat that is just based off basic box score addition. Battier's value is generally regarded by things that aren't measured in the box score. Playing smart team defense. Being in teh right place at the right time. Helping his teamates know where they need to be. Knowing his role on offense and not trying to go all hero "its on me" taking 25 shots a game. Is he overpaid at this point in his career? Yes. But he won't be for long.
@AroundTheWorld: I knew you weren't going to answer the question directly, because it would make your "argument" and "evidence" look silly. Thus, you decided to respond to my question with a question of your own and make a joke in a weak attempt at humor and an even weaker attempt at avoiding the issue. But to answer your question, KG made the conference finals before he got to Boston. @larsv8: There is no comparison between Jax and Battier. See one of my previous posts in this thread if you need an explanation why. Jackson is a better overall player and it's not even close. He's had plenty of playoff success. Battier has not. Now in reference to the playoffs against Orlando, you conveniently fail to mention that Jax hyperextended his knee and was playing hurt. We all know how long it takes for the physically detereorating Battier to come back from an injury. But you were never interested in a real debate. You just like to duck in and out of threads and ignore everything and try to make a cute little comment only to look silly in the end. I wouldn't want to get into a legitimate discussion defending Battier either if I were you, because you'll end up looking silly or worse yet you'll end up looking like AroundTheWorld.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4J_pKLCiXnU?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4J_pKLCiXnU?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> Hoping to see more of this in the upcoming season.... :grin:
lol... you're the one that brought up playoff wins on a specific team. larsv8 only did what you did. This is easy - how many playoff wins does Iguodala (the guy in your sig) and Battier have each? You haven't made anyone look silly, at best, you've made larsv8's question look as silly as yours.
So your argument is predicated around the idea that Battier, a guy who is the 5th option for us offensively and is on the court for what he does for our defense, is not taking the lead and being the guy to step up offensively? So you'd rather him Ariza or, dare I say it, SJax it out there and force up bad shot after bad shot? Jackson, even when he's not injured, is a horribly inefficient chucker. Wasting possesions on offense is just as bad as playing poor defense. You're hurting the team. No. Thanks. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-n3ExPXPibs?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-n3ExPXPibs?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> Your pipe? Smoke this.
Wow you guys are really going at it over Battier. I can see both sides of the argument. I like Battier and what he brings to our team. A lot of the stuff he does, does not show up in the box score. Its small things, but its the small things that help a team win games. Taking that charge, making that extra pass, rotating on defense to help stop penetration, and providing a leadership on the floor. He is a good spot up 3 pt shooter, so that helps space the floor. Now, do I wish he would look to score more, yes. Everytime he scores 12 or more points we win. I wish he looked to take more than just 5 or 6 shots a game. Doesn't seem right having a starter playing 30 mins a game and only attempting 6 shots. Feels like he is not contributing, but obviously he is. With Yao back, I think Battier will be more effective. Last year we needed him to be more aggressive on offense and I guess that is just not his game anymore. I think Martin will also get used to knowing he will be sitting out on the 3pt line for kickouts. Battier is the type of guy that will fit in well with other scorers on the floor since he does not need the ball in his hands to score. He can provide spacing on the floor for them by making his 3 pt shots. Interesting year to come...
I don't see why people need to put down Jacksont praise Battier or vice versa. Both of them can be, and has been useful players on good teams. Neither are going to carry you that far, in the regular season or in the playoffs, without significant talent around them.
Theres plenty of comparison. Both are role playing small forwards. One knows his role, the other doesnt. Jackson is probably a more talented player, but alas, is not as good a player because he doesn't utilize that talent properly. My point of posting is simply drawing attention to how stupid your argument is. If I cure disease all over the world, except for in one village in Africa, and then you turn around and try and measure my accomplishment by asking "How much disease did you cure in this one village", you are making a dumb argument. This is exactly what you are doing with your loaded Memphis playoff question. The fact that the Grizzlies made the playoffs, in itself, is a miracle.
Been a huge fan of Shane his entire career, but his offensive shortcomings have been deteriorating to the point where the negatives outweigh the positives. I would love him in a defensive specialist role off of the bench a la Chuck Hayes, but please no longer as a starting forward. Battier's Field Goal Percentage the last five seasons: 2005: 48.8% 2006: 44.6% 2007: 42.8% 2008: 41.0% 2009: 39.8% The trend is clear. His three point percentage is still respectable at 36% last season but has dropped from his peak of 42%. He also scored six points or less in 42% of last season's game. Four points or less in almost 25% of last season's games. And this is while playing 32.5 minutes per game. Some will say, "but he will be playing with Yao next year." Well, let's look at his offensive stats from 2008, which were even worse. 57% of the games he scores six points or less. 30% of the games he scored 4 points or less. And this was playing 33 minutes per game. I suppose the next excuse is he was playing injured all that season, which isn't all that comforting considering two years of age has been added and a couple other bumps and bruises. The offensive lack of production has grown too much. You can't expect to be a contender with your starting small forward is often contributing no more than four points a game. It's time for him to step back into a defensive specialist role.
Scoring is not the Rockets problem. Battier's going to be starting with four other guys who are great at putting the ball in the basket. It's not like Ariza would have been taking shots away from Brooks, Martin, Scola, and Yao. Shane gets out of their way and acts as a release valve in the corner. And he's made a lot of big shots.
Good analysis, but this year, he will be asked to do even less on offense....as the 5th option in the starting lineup. All we need are a couple of 3pters from him a game, some rebounds, and great defense out of that position. DD
