We don't know if they would have been title contenders or not. Nobody outside of Detroit thought the Pistons were title contenders. Everybody knew the West couldn't be beat. The West bigmen were supposed to dominate the small frontcourts, like the Pistons had. I believe they would still be in contention if they did not have Shaq. Just note that maybe Phil Jackson had something to do with the Lakers winning. Lakers were 53-29 the year before Shaq got there and didn't make it to the finals for the first 3 years he was there. It wasn't until Phil got there that they won championships.
Dwayne Wade, with 2 other 16+PPG scorers in the lineup, led Miami to a 42-40 record in 2003-04. He kicked ass to the tune of 16ppg, 4.5 assists, and 3.2 turnovers. Steve Francis, in the worst season of his career, put up better numbers on a better team than Wade. And you all crucified him for that. Shaq makes guards better. Period. Wade's a terrific talent, but he'd be a 2nd tier star without the big guy. Kobe Bryant was ALWAYS an egomaniac, even when they were winning championships. And he had Lamar Odom, a 15/10 PF, as his 2nd option. The biggest problem is, Kobe doesn't make anyone better.
As if you put Shaq on that Phx team (Johnson or Barbosa becomes the PG) and Nash as the 1 on Miami and their records would have been anywhere close. Nash plays with 2 all-stars, a future all-star (Johnson), and one fo the best shooting 2 guards in the league. Put Shaq on that team and subtract Nash, and Phx would make a run at 70 wins. I don't think people are arguing Shaq makes such a difference in the individual performance, but team performance and in particular playoff success. Wade has been great, but single handidly beating Washington twice and NJ a couple of times is not Jordanesk yet. But here is the rub, it wasn't just Shaq for nada. It was Shaq for a previous years all-star, Dream teamer, and fine all-around player (Odom), a decent starting caliber and recent 2nd runner up ROY swingman (Butler), and a kinda washed but servicable back-up 4 (Grant). That is about 35 points, 20 boards and 6 assists in those three players alone. They also added servicable starters through the Payton trade with Boston. Some people were saying with Bryant being the "real best player in the league" and a decent supporting cast they would still be one of the best teams in the West. That illusion crumbled. You think if Kobe was was traded for those guys (Odom, Butler, Grant) and Shaq stayed the Lakers would have been any less than a 3rd seed? Sure, and Shaq with no Robert Horry or Derrick Fisher or Rick Fox probably means no titles as well. At best take any of those guys off and they retain 1 of those 3 titles. Yes, but put Shaq with Wade, Kobe, Tmac, or maybe even Lebron, Iverson, Ray Allen, Carter, Pierce, Hamilton or Redd--you still have a title contendering team. There is no other center and maybe only one other big (Duncan) in the whole league who you could pair Wade and little else and gun for a titled. Just look at us, IMO Tmac is at least as good as Wade and paired with hands down the #2 center in the league, we couldn't get by the 1st round. I think this is what we are getting at. Shaq (and Duncan IMO) is just a lot more special and dominant for the playoff success than your Wade, Kobe, Tmac, Iverson and Lebrons. A guard or swing man can dominate like that (Jordan, Magic), just none at that level are currently in the NBA.
The Lakers, before Kobe became Kobe and Phil Jackson came along, had that type of talent on their roster and they never got close to 70 wins. You can say Kobe was comparable to Amare, Eddie Jones was comparable to Marion, and Glen Rice was as good as Richardson. Nobody to compare to Van Exel though. Remember, Van Exel along with Eddie Jones, AND Kobe Bryant were an All Stars back then. Don't forget Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Elden Cambell, and Rick Fox, nobody on the Suns compares to those guys right now outside of the guys I already mentioned. Those Laker teams were LOADED, Shaq was A LOT more dominant than he is now, and they never won as much as the Suns did this season. So, NO, the Suns this season don't get close to 70 wins this season. Man. Had Shaq been playing and Wade plays the same people would say it's because of Shaq's "presense" on the court, now it's because of his "presense" on the bench. I feel bad for all the great guards and even all the role players Shaq has played with, they never get the credit they deserve because the Fat Man gets too much of it. Fact of the matter is, no ONE player makes another player better, saying that takes away from that players individual talents. I mean even giving a guy open looks isn't exactly making him a better player, Penny, Kobe, and Wade do the same things, said player still has to make the shots. I've said before that Shaq doesn't get enough credit for the confidence and swagger he gives his teams, but the on the court stuff is as overrated as Stephon Marbury. I hate him and his hype because he gets all the praise when he wins, and none of the blame when he loses, see last year's Finals. Teams win and lose as a team, and even though a player like Shaq is the difference between championship contender status and a very good team, contrary to popular opinion, he's NOT in a league by himself. There are a handful of players that could replace Shaq and that Heat team wouldn't miss a beat, I mean, without Shaq right now they made it to ECFs! At this point in his career, with the wear and tear his body has received over the years, he's not nearly the same player he was a couple of years ago, the man struggles to grab 10 rebounds! Nenad Kristic, a ROOKIE!, outplayed him in the first round, Brandan Haywood contained him in the second. I'm sure he'll have a flash back 30-15 game in the ECFs that will have people saying he's still as good as he once was but I bet he doesn't have two of them.
Oh and Nash on the Heat? I dunno. Wade and him would obviously be the best back court in the NBA, not sure where that gets them though. Haslem averages an easy double double and is considered an All Star caliber PF. Eddie Jones improves. Not sure what happens with Alonzo Mourning, maybe he doesn't hold up for a full season. Being that they're in the East and the brawl takes care of the Pacers they would still be a top 2 team in that conference. In the end they wouldn't have enough inside to compete with the Pistons, but if Shaq doesn't invent a rejunivation machine they probably don't have enough with him either.
i subscribe to the shaq effect theory. i think yall are missing the point. cabbage's point isn't (or at least shouldn't be) to shortchange wade. but to emphasize the non-tangible benefits that shaq brings. secondly i think sometimes psychological factors like shaq being there do make players better even after those players are gone. magic knowing kareem was on his team must have made him more confident in the first few yeras. etc. but that doesn't mean magic wasn't every bit as great as he's given credit for.
Switch Shaq and Penny/Wade/Kobe we can also talk about the elite guard effect. It is especially true for Wade/Shaq and Magic/Kareem because Shaq/Kareem have seriously declined and rely more on their elite guards to carry the team. Right now Shaq is the 1B option on Heats rather than Wade.
You can pair Shaq or Duncan WITH Wade, Tmac, Kobe, Iverson (and probably Lebron, Ray Allen, Pierce, Hamilton or Redd) and still get a championship. You sub a next tier big man (KG/Amare/Yao) and it probably doesn't happen. Let's see, the multiple NBA championship MVPs over the last 25 years include: Shaq, Duncan, Jordan, Hakeem, Magic and Bird. It is not biased, there are 2 centers, 2 forwards and 2 guards--that is as balanced as it could get. Until Kobe, Tmac or Wade joins this group it is demeaning to compare them to the five I mention. BTW Shaq was effective against Detriot, the other Laker superstar was not. Shaq has been effective in every finals he has played, even when his team lost. Shaq isn't my favorite player, not close, neither was Jordan (or Duncan or Bird), but to not give these men their due for what they did on the court over and over shows a complete inability to seperate your feelings from your evaluations.
I maybe biased and a lot of my negative evaluation might be because Shaq annoys the hell out of me, but everyone else thinks he's still the Shaq of a couple of years ago, so that makes us even. You can't just pair him with an elite guard and get a championship, that's been proven the past two years when he hasn't won one with Kobe. Of course that wasn't Shaq's fault. Shaq today is not the same as the Shaq that was winning Final's MVPs, he's an old man, not so much in age, but in that he's been beat up more than any other player in the NBA. That dude has taken an insane amount of punishment over the years and I think it's hitting him hard right now. I mean, somehow a thigh bruise is making him look like Dampier, a thigh bruise? Come on now, a thigh bruise should not make you look like you've aged 10 years, either he's not the guy he used to be or it's something more. Shaq had a disappointing Finals IMO, one great game, a loss BTW, maybe another OK game for his past Final's standard, that's about it. I know people will say that in all the other games he shot a very high percentage, ok, so did Yao against the Mavs, so what? Shaq won't EVER dominate a game with scoring anymore, the sooner he recognizes that his team is at its best when he focuses on defense and rebounding the easier its road to another championship will be. How many double figure rebounding games did Shaq have against the Pistons? I believe it was one, a game where he had something like 25!! rebounds, every other game he got around 8 to 9. They really needed somebody to keep the Pistons off the offensive boards and he wasn't there for every game but one. Blocks? HA! They were a non-factor in that series, at least from him they were. You'd think that he would be a beast on defense and on the boards since he didn't have to play one on one defense against Ben Wallace. Anyway, Larry Brown basically broke all of that down BEFORE the Finals even started, he had said that Shaq was his old dominant self against the Wolves and Spurs because he was focused on his defense and rebounding. He was right; he basically told Shaq that scoring wasn't going to win him a fourth ring, and instructed him how he can. Maybe he tried to prove Larry wrong. All we heard was that he wasn't getting the ball enough and that's why the Lakers lost. Whatever, same old, same old with the media, they have no clue or choose to ignore that the game of basketball has two equally important phases other than scoring, at least when it comes to Shaq they do. What I remember from game 5 was Ben Wallace embarrassing Shaq so bad that he had to include Big Ben on a diss track. Pathetic. Against the Pistons Wade will have to be the MVP, not Shaq, for the Heat to advance, that's my final thought on that.
Jumpman, points well taken. I agree Shaq is not what he once was. I personally think a major factor with the Spurs getting their 2nd ring is Shaq looked extremely sluggish that series, Duncan made him look bad in a couple of 1 on 1 match-ups that would not have happend with a young, peak condition, Shaq. Last year and this year I think Shaq looks better, but not in the 00 type form. As for beating Detriot, I kind of disagree. I think Detriot can defend so well on the perimeter and help against penetration so quickly that it is going to take a disciplined inside-outside team to do it. I think they can largely limit any perimeter player in the NBA right now--Kobe (e.g., last finals series), Tmac or Wade included. But the Heat have a chance because of Shaq and him kicking it out to Wade and the Joneses, and Spurs have a chance because of Duncan and their perimeter shooters. Now maybe Wade is getting close to a young Jordan level, but I don't think so, I think Detriot can, if not stop him, really nuetrelize him. If Miami runs its offense through Wade and Detriot can't slow him I'll go on record as him being best guard in the league since Jordan left (Kobe/Tmac/AI included).
I thought this was funny. Individually, even when the Spurs lost, I thought Duncan always outplayed Shaq, but Duncan didn't have a 30 point per game scorer beside him. I think the key to that series (it better happen... Indiana, lie down already!) will be Wade, for both teams. Offensively for Miami and defensively for Detroit. Wade has to preform, he showed he can during the regular season with a 30-10-10 triple double, but in the other two games he threw up stinkers just like Kobe did. Detroit has to contain him. They'll do the same thing they did against the Lakers, let Shaq go one on one against Ben Wallace and then focus their defense on stopping Wade. I don't think they want him scoring 30 points a game, but more importantly they don't want the Jones boys to get hot from three off of kick outs from Wade. I wouldn't consider him the best since Jordan. He'd be somwhere up there, but that Heat team is really, really good, very underrated in terms of depth. So far in the playoffs they're shooting over 50% and only Phoenix is scoring more per game. You can say they've played two teams with bad defense, well, that's only true with Washington, New Jersey was actually a good defensive team during the season. Five guys are averaging over 10 a game, four over 15 a game. Defensively they're been one of the best, they lead playoff teams in field goal percentage against and are behind Detroit, Indiana, and San Antonio in points. However, they are only behind Phoenix in point differential. As long as everyone stays healthy and Shaq recovers that series will be the best series in the East. Shaq plays the decoy to perfection and Wade shines, Miami in 7.
Well, I don't think TD wins the 1st round if he didn't have a formidable enough DR to make Shaq work on both ends (especially keeping TD from having to play Shaq defensively), but point taken. I am not sure he is the best since Jordan either. But Kobe, who many argued was the next best one, was dismantled by Detriot. So if Wade is the key to beating the Pistons, all props to him and I think he actually deserves the title of the next Jordan. I agree the Heat is a fine team. The Heat lead the league in FG differential, a whopping +.59. That is double the next team, SA (+.27). Last year the Heat was -.03. This year the Lakers were -.16, last year they were +.14--but probably a lot more when healthy. When you consider the Shaq was traded for Odom (outstanding all around player, and Miami's best player and all-star last year), Butler (Lakers #2 scorer) and change--it makes the two teams turn arounds in these figures fairly spectacular. Yeah, Wade's improvement is one major factor, but I think Shaq's presence was they #1. (One can't also discount Shaq being 5th in the league in blocks among those who played 50 games.) Somewhat in line with Cabbage, I think the Shaq effect is there, but Shaq's total points/rbs have been down because his minutes were down. Miami could afford to keep his minutes down because they were so dominating most of the time with outstanding defense and two great offensive options. It really is the best of both worlds. Wade is young and can play lots of minutes and with the defense they can beat a lot of teams, and they can largely save Shaq for when they really need him. It is obvious this is what they and he have been doing--saving Shaq for the real battle (Detriot and possible the championship).
True, Shaq was lucky and still is during his peak years because he had no other center to battle with him. If Dream is in the same era as Shaq is, and dream has a sidekick like T-mac, Dream would beat Shaq most of the time. Why? Dream plays both sides of the court and Shaq only plays offense and he is lazy on defense. As a matter of time, when Hakeem in his 30s with a bunch of role players played Shaq + Penny+Horace Grant, Hakeem sweeped Shaq away. Think Shaq with the same bunch of role players as Hakeem had and no Kobe, Penny, Wade, Can Shaq win a title? I say NO! People have short memories and believe Shaq is great, well, he is great, but he has nobody to compete against him on the court, he is no Hakeem.
Oh, right, Shaq was paired with Penny, Horace Grant against Dream's team with Dream and a bunch of role players, Yadayada, Shaq got sweeped.
Yeah, those role players like Clyde Drexler (who saved us from losing to Utah in round 1), Sam Cassell, and Horry (at his peak), how did Hakeem ever win with those guys. So Jordan didn't make guys like Paxon and Kerr better? Hakeem didn't make Kenny Smith better? Hakeem and Shaq didn't make Horry better? Magic didn't make Scott better? Maybe they don't make those guys individual skills better, but I think the great players around these guys certainly allow these guys to take advantage of their strengths and cover for their limitations. Personally, if you want to talk about unsung heros, I don't think Grant/Rodman get enough credit for the Bulls runs. The two years without an all-defense caliber PF they did not make the ECF, including the 2nd year with Jordan when Shaq-Penny's Orlando team (which Grant had then joined) knocked them out.
The winning they experience playing with those guys makes them better. I mean, Dan Dikau can give a player open looks, I'd say he made Nachbar look good a few times does that count as making teammates better? What Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem and players like them do is make their teams win BIG, but they still win and lose as a team. The draw back to playing with Jordan and Shaq was that the rest of the guys get no credit at times, their "side kicks" get cut down a lot, and their coach is overrated. Public perception says that Pippen and Kobe weren't nearly as good as they looked, because Jordan and Shaq were so great. Replace Pippen with Clifford Robinson, replace Kobe with Ray Allan, replace Phil Jackson with Lenny Wilkins and Jordan and Shaq still win the same amount of rings. Whatever. The Rockets were lucky that Hakeem wasn't like them. He was as great, but nobody said that Robert Horry and Sam Cassell were overrated, nobody says Clyde Drexler rode Hakeem's coat tails to a ring, nobody says Rudy T is an opportunist. Same with Tim Duncan, nobody spites his teammates to make him look better, I think the reason for that is that Hakeem and Duncans' hype was never bigger than the team. Rodman is the one of the most underrated players ever. His crazy stunts made him famous, but probably cost him a spot in the Hall of Fame. Grant was solid as well, I think he made the All Star team a couple of times. Along with those two, guys like future Rocket Toni Kukoc, Ron Harper, Bill Cartwright, and BJ Armstrong don't get any credit. You don't see anyone wearing those jerseys like we see Drexler's, Horry's, Cassell's, and Maxwell's.
Drexler came for the 2nd title, and he was not the same player as he used to be. Cassell was a rookie, Horry never was an all-star consistently. Shaq had Penny, at the time, one of the top 3 guards, Grant, all-star PF. Basically, it came down to this: Dream > Shaq Drexler < Penny Horry < Grant Don't tell me Drexler was better than Penny at the time. Drexler was getting old and that's why Portland traded him.
Replace Phil with Lenny, Shaq AT MOST win 1 title, and that's not guaranteed! How many titles had Shaq win before Phil came? Nada. The WC final against Portland, the WC final against Kings, no way Lakers won without Phil. Phil was a master in pursuading referees. By the way, if Larry Brown or Rudy T was the coach on the Portland team, no way Lakers win that game 7. Phil has the respect of the referees. Phil's first task when he went to the Lakers is to talk to reporters about how SHAQ DID NOT get enough CALLS !!! Phil knows the stuff. Whatever.
