Lets see... Freedom of speech is the cornerstone of OUR CULTURE. This doesnt hold true in most countries around the world. I believe the poster to whom you were responding to was speaking about freedom of speech in the middle east. America(ns) cant simply go around and start deciding what is best for the world. This is why everyone hates us. Who decided that we are the world police?? OK so the west has been bending over backwards for Islam?? "Hi my name is Israel.. I know I dont have the right to exist but look, we got some money and will help out you American politicians so throw us a bone and give us the land all them muslims live on! What? You mean they arent happy that we are coming in and making them resettle?? Tell you what, we will continue with our donations and with our hookups in the media we will keep you in the positive light AND we will be like America Jr. out here in the middle east so you can protect your oil interests! All you have to do is keep supporting us and rattling your militaristic sword at all these damn moslem countries that keep mad dogging us, cause you know we truly shouldnt exist in the first place...Damn! they launched some *****y rockets at us..Oh well we will use some high quality US delivered/produced missles and blow em out the water!!! lawls!" Truly the west has bent over backwards for muslims. Ok so you can truly tell me how Islam is practiced in 2009? Really?? Are you sure that you arent simply looking at a handful of people and making your judgements? Your positive that you arent?? Cause if you really have insight on how the 1billion or so muslims practice please do share with me. So see the ideology is important because what a few think doesnt reflect what everyone believes. What inalienable rights are being taken from you?? And out of curiosity what religion are you?? (not that it matters but like i said, im curious)
Also I dont understand how anyone can expect countries around the world to be Pro-American? Do you guys not know or just choose to ignore the fact that we go in to countries around the world under the pretense of being the 'good guy', then we take what we want how we want when we want and leave as soon as there is no value in it for us. Case in point Afghanistan with the Mujahedeen. Supported them until they beat back the Russians and then we left without trying to help setup any basic infrastructure and gasp! what happened?? The crazies came in and took over!! Also if America is sooo worried about human rights and protecting the inalienable rights of the worlds citizens then what about Darfur?? We got billions to spend in iraq and pakistan and afghanistan for fighting but apparently not much to help out these incredibly poor and tortured people?? Whats the difference here? We talking bout OIL.
Freedom of speech is the most basic human right. Are you even considering what you are typing? You are arguing that governments can decide what opinions can be heard and which opinions can be squashed. The difference between the West and the Muslim world in this regard is simple. In the West, limitations on free speech apply when that speech can physically harm other people. In the Muslim world, limitations on free speech occur at the whim of whoever is the most powerful or violent. I know that is not the world you want to leave our children, so think about what you are saying please. This discussion has nothing to do with Israel, and there are plenty in the West that support the former Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians who parents and grandparents either sold their land to Zionists, or lost their land when their countries decided to invade the sovereign county of Israel. It was war, and bounderies change in war. If the Arabs wouldn't have started the war in the first place, then Israel would be much smaller and Jerusalem would be in Arab hands. Islam seeks to dominate- read the Koran. All you have to do is look at the stupid Dutch, and see what happened to them when they decided to allow their country to be flooded with Muslims. It is now illegal to "insult" Islam, and some who do get killed in the streets. The Dutch are human beings with a natural right to say Islam is a gutter ideology if they choose. The Muslims have taken that inalienable right away, and I am disgusted.
So don't pick a side. Don't live with allegiance to a flag. Call out crap everywhere you see it...under every flag.
Ok so the ideologies of the West must be right?? Just because we as a people value things doesnt mean that its best for everyone. Countries should be able to run themselves without our interference. It is our global interference that has led us to our precarious position in foreign relations. You cant just go around and say the Muslim world doesnt have this and then blame Muslims. What about China? What about Russia? What about the South American countries? Look i definitely see your point with freedom of speech, but what im trying to get across is that not everyone needs to adhere to our values. It always has to do with Israel. The reason muslims around the world are sooo against the west stems from the founding of Israel, which would not have happened if the US didnt back them. If the US backed away today and stopped working for Israel, not only would Israel cease to exist but muslims around the world would not have this hatred towards America. America and the west arent hated because they have democracy or because of any other issue EXCEPT Israel. Oh and I guess all those Palestinians sold their lands to Israel or lost them to Israel which in this situation and be called the West since it was with the Wests backing that Israel was able to do anything at all. And I dont know what you expected the arabs to do. If England came here and dropped off 500,000 people in Washington D.C and said look they need a home, this is now their home. They will be able to govern themselves as they choose and you are not gonna do anything about it cause you dont wanna F with us. America would NOT be ok with it. Why should the arabs be any different. Also, on a sidenote, why DOES america love Israel like no other?? Why do we give them so much money/weapons/anything they want every year? Why must every president/presidential candidate say that under no circumstances will we stop supporting them? This has always puzzled me. If you think the answer has anything to do with democracy you are delusional. Since you apparently have read it, please provide me actual evidence from the Qur'an that backs up your claims. You do know that there are ALOT of muslims in America right? So how have your rights been compromised as a result of this?? Because you cant walk up to a muslim and insult him??
Don't bother, he obviously hasn't. You can tell from the context of his basic BS posts that he is just basing his entire arguments on a few anti-Muslim propaganda websites. Btw, Mr. Kurtz I know you are new to the BBS, but here in the D&D, you can't get away with being loud and ignorant. There are plenty on here with sound logic who will flame you until you belong on the BK value menu.
Yes, I have read the Koran. I have also read the Bible. Both religions seek to convert the entire world to their way of thinking. Both religions seek to dominate. Both religions are complete fairy tales that are responsible for unimaginable pain and suffering.
Since you have read both of these books can you give examples of some differences between the two religions? Or are they pretty much the same?
If any of you deny that Muslims and Christians see to convert every person on this Earth to their dogma, then you are being disingenuous.
I dont think I really have a side. My allegiance lies to the United States of America. NOT to the government of the US. I put country over government.
I tend to agree with DD's and stanleykurtz' posts. Some of the posts of the pro-Islam posters show the intolerance that is part of how Islam is practiced by many nowadays.
You don't value the inalienable rights of individuals, and you don't understand that the American people ARE the government. Power flows from the people to the government in America, and the American people are responsible for the actions of their elected officials.
Get a grip. I'm not from your culture or your country and I'm free to express this thought. It's called the ability to discuss things which you don't necessarily agree with. However, I understand that you would like people to say whatever they want loudly even if more harm is done than good. But humans shouldn't do this unless they truly believe they are causing more good than bad. I was asking DD specifically to consider what he was saying and to re-assess the effect of it. None of your business whatsoever. I put it in a way that he would understand, and even if we don't agree, I communicated my point and he did his. For people like you, I don't bother. The way you talk makes it unlikely that anyone will ever take you seriously anyway. If what I say bothers you, please put me on ignore. Thanks.
No it's not. It's called posting on an American message board where the government doesn't monitor what we are saying. In many Muslim countries, especially the Arab world, the government can come and take the life of people who say the wrong thing. For example, if a Muslim decided to be a Christian and started a Christian website. And you are the arbitrator of what is more "harmful" and what is "good". I don't think so. Then email your opinions. You say you don't bother, but you are addressing a post to me? Look, the Muslim world is going to have to change drastically or there is a huge clash of cultures coming that much larger than anything we have seen yet. It won't be about religion either, because religion is a tool that is defined by the user, not by any sacred text. The coming clash will be about the loss of individual rights in countries that allowed too much Muslim immigration, and will be overtaken in an ideological sense by successive Muslim generations that will outbreed their hosts. It is going to be get very ugly I am afraid, and backlash violence in Western Europe over the next ten year will just be the start. ...all in my humble opinion.
Somewhat ironic you say that, considering that you live in a country (the U.S.) with what some called a demographic ticking bomb in the form of a large and exploding population of Latinos in an Anglo-Saxon country, already well exceeding 15-17% of the overall population. At the same time, the largest Muslim population anywhere in Europe is in France, which is less than 8% by all accounts. You make it sound as if the Euro Muslims are a unique challenge that is not present anywhere else in the world. Well, guess what? Millions of Americans would challenge that assumption, and argue that America is much closer to that hypothetical (and offensive, if you ask me) demographic tipping point, or nightmare as some Anglos have labeled it. So you know, stones and glass houses
There is a significant body of literature on the radicalization and alienation of Muslim youth throughout Europe. I'm told that Globalized Islam: The Search for a New Ummah is a particularly good example. Qualitatively, the cultural alienation of a Muslim in Europe is much more severe than a Latin American Catholic in the USA. For that matter, it is much more fricative for Muslims in Europe than Muslims in the USA. There are a series of problems for Muslims in Europe that are, in fact, relatively unique and not replicated in the USA, despite a larger population of Muslims. This is not particluarly an endorsement of any other arguments made in this thread. I'm just saying that there is something different going on in Europe.
