O-dawg, where have you been hiding? A breath of fresh air. Welcome from lurkdom. Everyone sees your point Macbeth, it's just that not all of us agree. Only three players in history, I repeat, "in history" have put up the kind of numbers Steve has in his first three years : Oscar Robertson Magic Johnson Grant Hill (15 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists) Rarified company. As he continues to improve, he will make everyone around him better.
MacBeth, you need to wait, like someone said, for many more games before you can come to that conclusion. In addition, if EG had hit those shots our assist numbers as a team would be a lot better. Probably you may want to take comfort in the fact that there has been much better ball and player movement and guys are getting open shots. In addition we are using a new offense which will take time. That will only improve with Rice, KT and MoT coming back. Part of the reason why Hawk has looked so good is that he has hit his shots. There is no doubt in my mind that SF and everybody is on the same wavelength on ball movement. I personally believe SF did what he had to do to get us where we are at, under the circumstances. Privately, I am sure he wants and intends to average 10 assists per game. Put simply, SF as a point guard, will not be the reason that this team struggles, if it does. My biggest problem with him is that he needs to protect himself better. That missed dunk the other day was stupid. The Spurs (no excuse), Mavs(LaFrentz and No Wang), Lakers (Shaq) and Kings (Webber and Bibby) have as much or more to worry about than us, if we are worrying about SF as a point guard. The fact that we are almost last in assists has to be taken with a heavy dose of salt.
For those who referred to Starbury as a PG: I believe the Suns want to move him to shooting guard, it's just a matter of how well the players they try at the point (Penny, Joe Johnson) manage as the PG. I'm hoping for great things with the team we have, and I don't like trades, especially if they involve core players. But the real question to me is, How far can we go with two shooting guards as our primary players? Hopefully when we are closer to full strength and Yao looks less like a headless giant out on the floor, Steve will get back to about 20 ppg and at least 6.5 apg. Not a pure point guard, but a great player nevertheless.
I think MacBeth's analogy of a PG being the QB of the team is very enlightenning in point of this discussion. In pro football, there are two kinds of QBs. There are the conventional in-the-pocket passers (e.g. Dan Marino). There are the tough head-first-no-sliding running QBs (e.g. Steve Young). Both Marino and Young are great QBs. Who is better? Hard to compare. From the effectiveness point of view, the running QBs have an added advantage of getting the linebackers occupied from covering your men because of the threat of QB keeping. They are also more likely to be able to salvage a broken play. Yet, those QBs who look to "run first" (traditionally a lot of black QBs are like that--no stereotyping intended here), especially when pressure is on, are not very successful until they learn to think passing down field first even when the offensive line fails. Young is a great example of that. But you can see the trend is moving toward favoring these players. Look at the examples of Moon, McNair, Culpepper, and the new star Vick. Applying to our PG discussion, a PG who can score at will definitely has an advantage. But until he learns to think pass first, he is not going to be very effective for his team to win. Having said that, the idea of "combo guard" is certainly fashionable nowadays, and for good reasons, just like there are more and more successful running QBs in the NFL. PGs who shoot much and Cs who pass much are not novel ideas any more. The roles of positions have blur. I agree with those who say that it really doesn't matter who you call the point guard as long as everybody passes the ball in the flow. If you define the PG as the guy who brings the ball up the court, then so be it. Of course this guy is important because he makes the first decision as to who will get the ball first. If he doesn't make the right decision, the whole offense gets bogged down. But he is not the only one responsible for a flowing offense. It takes five men to run a 5-man offense. The other guys need to move without the ball, and get to positions where they can receive the ball effectively. (Just like in football, the receivers take part of the blame when the passing game is not working.) And they need to have the scoring ability or passing skill to keep the offense going once they receive the ball. Francis and Mobley get criticized, imo, not b/c they don't pass the ball per se, but b/c they don't pass the ball when their teammates are clearly in effective positions. Are they selfish players? I don't think so, at least not yet. I am still giving them the benefit of the doubt. They need to learn, just like those young running QBs, to think pass first even under pressure. And that's not easy. It takes years for some to learn. So let's be patient. No "trade Francis" or "trade Mobley" talks, OK? I wouldn't mind having a QB who can run lots of yards and can always threaten to break free for a running TD. But if my QB is the leading runner on my team the whole season long, then I'll be worried.
I'm not quite sure why it seems like people would be ok with Steve dominating the ball if he was a SG but not if he's a PG. Look at Philly - sure AI is an SG, but he shoots even more and has the ball more than Steve does! Not to mention the fact that he has a very poor FG%. As long as Steve brings the TOs down, I'll be happy.
Well said! Charles Barkley: 6'4" POWER FORWARD Magic Johson: 6'9" POINT GUARD Denis Rodman: 215lb POWER FOWARD Dirk Nowitzki: 7'0" "SMALL?" FOWARD Raplph Sampson: 7'4" POINT CENTER/POWER FOWARD Calvin Murphy: 5'9" SHOOTING GUARD Michael Jordan: 6'6" POINT/SHOOTING GUARD Kevin Garnet: 7'1" SMALL/POWER FOWARD/CENTER Tracy McGrady: 6'8" SHOOTING GUARD Typical? I think not.
MacBeth, Actually, my Isiah Thomas example was the same as yours. He can get 50, but doesn't need to. I think I said that in my first reply to you. But you asked if we could win with a shoot-first PG. And I said, yes. We could win some games with that method. Is it the best way? No. Getting his teammates involved is better. Then, if needed, shoot. But, until Francis learns to NOT shoot first. Then, his ability to "shoot first" and win will be greater.
On the surface, saying that Francis can become a greater scorer by passing more would seem to be a contradicting statement. The point is, for both Francis and Mobley, their points will come easier once other teams start to respect their passing abilities. As of right now, I dont think many teams respect either ones passing abilities and that is why 2, sometimes 3 defenders will collapse on them when they get into the lane.
How about a different perspective? The past few years at this time people were begging Steve to shoot more. Or to be more precise, really wanting him to be decisive with the ball... Well, now he is. And he is lighting people up. And they are afraid. But keep bugging him about passing the ball. Because he should. He will eventually have to. Then again, and make no mistake, what he's doing now is a step forward, we're witnessing the evolution of of the next GUARD.... POINT.
Didn't see tonight's game, but based on the fact that there have alreadt threads saying our offense sucks and that Stevie should be a sg, not a pg, I would take it that team play was not a strenght...I would also guess that Payton probably put on a show of what a "real point guard" should do...am I right?
Also on the Kidd stats versus Steve Francis stats, Kidd won't have to play 40+ minutes a game, because the Nets can blow people out so Kidd doesn't have to try and pull it out at the end ala the Rockets every game. Also, SF is entertaining as a 1v1 player but he's not going to average 29 points over the season unless the Rockets like the lottery so much they want to return. Other teams will just collapse on him with the zone and he'll force up circus shots like last year, get his 30 points and we'll lose. How can the Steve Francis / Cat show win this year when it didn't last year when they were both healthy?
That would be correct. Sonics 27 assists on 39 FGM, Rockets 19 assists on 38 FGM. The next excuse - the asists will go up when KT & Rice return. The excuse after that - KT & Rice are still working the rust off. The excuse after that - MoT has been out for over a year. He's still rusty and learning the offense. The excuse after that - the Rockets don't have any players that can shoot. Maybe we should go out and find some Drobnjaks, Jerome James's, Radmanovics, Barrys, Sesays and Masons. They can't be that hard to find...at least not for Payton.
Great post, but you forgot the ultimate excuse...Rudy doesn't use these guys right...Steve is just doing what he's told...
Just took a look at some clips, and it seems that Steve had another great game...for a shooting guard. He had ok assts tonight, but he started the offense way too late, looking to break his man down while the clock runs down, then ( on those rare occassions he decides not to shoot) he gets the set going with 13 or fewer seconds left. Invest more time in your team! Then maybe fewer rushed shots=higher shooting %=more assists. As the leader, Steve has to trust his teammates. That has to come first. You can't jack it up until they have 'earned' your trust, because when you're jacking it up they don't get any better, they just get cooler, and they eventually work less..and if you keep dinking around looking to try and take your man off the dribble until giving up and starting the offense with 12 seconds or so, that's not enough time for your teammates to effectively get going...which all means that they'll shoot poorly...thereby not earning the trust again...If you start with Francis not trusting his guys, and jack it up until they do, you're in a never ending cycle...
O-dawg, I second the notion that you post more here. Please. As Sane has pointed out eariler, once the five-man offense develops and Ming develops with it we're going to see some fluid game play with assists all around. Quick- who leads in assists for the Lakers? For the Kings? How many assists do they average? How many do their teammates average? Not many. But together, enough. Plenty enough. It's a "making reads from the defense" reaction-based offense like that which we are headed toward. Francis, Cat, Ming, Kenny, Mo, all these guys will get assists. Plus, once we get there, we'll be one up on the Kings- we'll have true go-to plays (well rehearsed) for the fourth quarter when all other options in the 5-man offense have been stifled. MacBeth, O-Dawg absolutely simply could not have possibly made it clearer but you just won't accept it. I don't know why you're clinging to this old school thing in spite of such well versed commentary to the contrary, but it doesn't fit here. When Mobley was the starting PG with Hakeem, #33, and Barkley in the frontcourt, did he "run the offense?" Who "runs the offense" for the Kings? Bibby, Webber, or Divac? Who "runs the offense" for the Lakers? Kobe, Shaq, Fisher? Steve Francis is not Stockton or Kidd. If he reaches his potential, which is huge, he still won't be. I'll bet he'll never average 10 dimes, especially now that we have our core players in place and a 5 man offense forming which is going to be awesome. No, Steve has doesn't have good court vision for a pg. And even if he isn't a pg or whatever (the position thing is meaningless), no, he hasn't developed that "making your teammates better" skill. He's not at that level. But he will- I believe it. (Does having that faith make me 'blind?')He's a true warrior, a hard worker, a passionate player, and deeply desires winning. He has the right supporting cast. It's going to take time for him to reach that level, that final level- the highest level. Jeff keeps pointing this out quite well but several guys somehow find excuses for why Steve should have reached the pinnacle now now now. If you're so damn frustrated that Steve doesn't have Kidd's court vision or hasn't developed the "making your teammates better" MVP ability that all the other past stars took 7-10 years to develop, then why don't you just go be Laker fans or Nets fans? The board would be better off without your constant complaining. (edited the tone of the last sentence, don't want to be too b****y miyself.)
First, I'd like to state that I do not consider Marbury a selfish PG. Marbury has a bad rep for the same reason Francis has a bad rep -- because he left town. But that's JMO. As for this whole argument, let's sum it up. What's being said is that Francis doesn't play like a PG. But that's a moot point, because the definition of a PG can and will change. Nothing is typical in the NBA. 7'6 players aren't typical, 6'11 players running a large portion of the offense is not typical (Webber), your PG ranked 5th in Field Goals Attempted in the league is not typical. But if it's better for the team, the it doesn't matter. The Kings are winners, Yao Ming is a #1 pick, and Steve Francis is an All Star averaging 30 points, 10 rebounds, and 5 assists. Sounds like Shaquille O'Neal numbers doesn't it? Here's my perspective. As we've been saying, steve will never be the Jason Kidd of the league in terms of setting his teammates up. But there's an upside to this. MoT, Cato, and Yao Ming are VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE scorers. Rice hasn't been lately, but he's an above average offensive player. So, basically, Steve can go tothem, and they can all create their own shot, and score at a high percentage. Here's my personal spin on the subject. With High% players like Ming, Cato, MoT....a SG like Mobley...a high-scoring PG like Francis, there's one thing that would fit brilliantly into the mix. That player is Lamar Odom. Of course, there are questions about his health and his drug violations. But it's basically taking a chance on a perfect team. With Boki or T-Mo playing behind him, we have quality insurance too.
1) I have previously, and will once again make this distinction : There are teams whose point guards don't 'run' the offense...the example of this I used is the Bulls of a few years back.( You have given others....I suppose there's a point there, but I must have missed it.) On those teams the point guard's role is not as significant. However, on teams where the point guard is the guy who does run the offense, set up the half-court, lead the fast break, call the numbers, that role is essential. When that same man calls his own number most of the time, or when he dribbles the ball looking to break his man down until the clock is almost out, then gives it to his teammates in poor position with little time, that has an undeniable, negative effect on the offense. To use of the players you mentioned, how effective would the King's offense be if Bibby took 20 odd shots a game,and kept the ball until 13-10 seconds were left on the clock? Are you telling me that that wouldn't define their offense a lot differently than it is now? 2) A point guard who runs the offense defines that offense, and as such is constrained to meeting certain standards of team-play. Team-play starts with that point guard, or it doesn't happen at all... Ask the Kings about Bibby vs. Williams...or the Nets about Kidd vs. Marbury...Whether or not he fits or breaks the mold in other respects is irrelevant, as long as, in running the offense, he doesn't keep it to himself. Alan Iverson was seen coming out of college as a mold-breaking point guard...and he was. But until he got one of the best coaches in the game, and until that coach saw that breaking this particular mold was bad for the team, they won nothing. Then they redefined his role, where he still got the ball a ton, but wasn't the guy bringing it up and creating the offense ( for himself ) and they were quickly playing a whole lot better. Listing players who don't fit conventional roles would only make sense in this argument if you could also list at least one way where 1 guy can beat 5 consistently. Some roles have definition by the nature of their roles. What if you had a qb who decided to break with convention by running every play? Or a goalie who decides to become an up-front scorer? Or a pitcher who wants to make plays in the outfield? Ridiculous, right? I mean a very talented qb could run with some success every game, yes? And a talented goalie could probably bring the puck up and pot the odd goal, yes? But would it be better for the team if they did that, or if they stayed 'conventional'? 3) Kidd had the teamplay thing down by his 3rd year, easy, as did Bibby, Miller, etc. DO I think that those guys have Steve's all around talent? No...but if you're leading an offense, that is the most important job you have, and it starts with your head. Can he do it? Yes, I think so, but I also think he'll never be as natural at it because of his makeup, and maybe because he has the ability to do things some of these other guys can't, and the temptation to take over the game when you feel you can is very strong for players raised on MJ highlights. A closer parallel would be Marbury...the numbers don't support the argument that Marbury is selfish, so why does he have that rap? Because, if you watch him, he does two things which drive coaches and teammates crazy...he plays one on one too much, although he's very good at it, and he keeps the ball way too long, thereby rarely giving his teammates the chance to get into the flow. Sound farmiliar? I have a much greater expectation that Francis will get past this than Marbury, but then again 4 or 5 years ago I would have said Marbury would too... 4) I agree that Francis will take time to develop...I have said consistently throughout this and other threads that I am not advocating trading him, nor am I yet in the 'Move him to SG' camp...What I am saying is that development is needed, and that in terms of team-play, this year has thus far not been an observable step in the right direction. Pretending it's just a matter of time is silly...it will take time, yes, but it will also take a shift in priorities, and that's not a given. 5) Who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I have the right to be concerned about, or what I should or should not express my concern about? So only fans who think everything is perfect about everyone wearing the ugly pyjamas ...ooops...the beautiful Rockets jerseys is welsome to their opinion? You, Nolen, are I presume the standard? Instead of going to another board, and rooting for another team, would it be ok if you gave me your E-Mail, and I just ran all my opinions by you before I post them here, and you tell me whether they are the same as yours, and therefore acceptable, and then I can come in here and put them up? Let me ask you something...isn't being a fan a matter of caring for your team, and wanting it to do well? And isn't part of that caring and well wishing being concerned when you see things that you think are/will hinder your team's development? And isn't this site about fans' opinions and discussions, or is it just a format to praise all things Rocket? And, for the record, while i shouldn't feel the need to justify my perspective on being a fan to narrow-minded, judgemental condescending twits like yourself, a quick perusal of my history will show you two things...I have been a Rockets fan for almost 20 years, and am therefore entitled to my opinion whether it coincides with yours or not, and I am hardly guilty of constant complaining. I have a few fairly consistent concerns, and despite your opinion that a well-phrased argument opposing those concerns should automatically alter my perception to meet yours, I maintain them. That said, I am, and have been on record, very excited about this team in general, and about our younger players in particular, including Francis. My 'complaing' in the past has been about : * The move to get Rice. * What I felt was overpaying for Mo Taylor, although I saw the point from a loyalty point of view. * Not getting Griffin enough pt. ( Kids in general). * Team defense. * Drafting Collier. * What I felt was overpaying for Moochie...same as Mo. And now I am asking questions, questions mind you, about two issues: Does Steve need to develop a better pg mindset for this team to improve, and is this year a step in that direction so far, and are the combination of KT, Mo T, T-Mo, Rice, Nachbar, and Griffin too many mouths to feed at forward. I don't know about you, Nolen, but I feel that my complaints have been pretty bang-on, and I stand by them. If you don't like intelligent criticisms of team/player decisions, but would rather be surrounded by fans who only see what is good and great in their teams, irrespective of merit, I suggest you go become a fan of the Bulls or Lakers...I prefer to be surrounded by fans who have eyes to go with their tongues.
