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The rights and wrongs of "avoiding" death: cryogenics, frozen brains, and the promise of life ever a

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Northside Storm, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    This story is cutting across a lot of nerves today (#1 most read on the NYTimes).

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/u...o-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

    There's a lot of questions here that can be asked from the standard "are we playing God", to the value of faith in technological progress, to the whole notion of what it means to have love and lost.

    It reminds me of this story of one of my personal heroes, Hal Finney:

    http://www.wired.com/2014/08/hal-finney/

    Cryogenics is certainly going to be a hot topic, especially as the science becomes more (or less) plausible. What are your thoughts on "avoiding" death?
     
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  2. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    I think one of the biggest issues of our society in current times is that we do not respect death. I have a theory that it is the reason why a lot of us have existential type issues that affect our lives in various direct/indirect ways and how a root cause of this is probably too much individualism.

    But anyway. Idk if cryogenics will ever amount to anything.

    I'd personally never go for it.
     
  3. Amiga

    Amiga 80s
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    I don't know if there is any right or wrong. The person is indeed dead. There isn't a right or wrong of that.

    Are they naive, stupid, crazy, or "wrong" for wanting to have a chance of revival? Not for me to judge. Doesn't really matter at all to me. I wouldn't also personally do it, for the simple fact that there isn't a single credible evidence I know of that that technology is at all feasible and even if it is likely feasible, I'm still likely not going to choose that path. It would be me and stranger in hundreds of years. I would need to re-create relationship, suffer from all that's long gone, and I might be, just might be subjected to being a guinea pig of future generation. If I can take whole families with me, the idea of my loved one subjected to future generation unknown actions is also scary. Doesn't seem attractive.

    You might also as well add "mind" transfer to machine to this. I would think that's actually more feasible, especially if we do come to find out that consciousness isn't what it's all cracked to be and is just a result of our brain. And I think this one can be much more controversial. Once computer are at the level of complexity and power of the brain and consciousness is well understood, future technology could be a way to restore functionality when the brain is damaged. That seem like something that would be accepted in society as a cure to medical conditions of the brain. But what about idea of human body-less "mind"? "Mind" roaming the net? "Mind" lasting as long as there's machine to keep it going? Way to shutdown "mind"? "mind" with greater and greater capacity, eventually creating a new specie much more powerful than today human.
     
  4. malakas

    malakas Member

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    And what society respects or respected death in the history of mankind exactly?
    If someone contemplates seriously the notion of death without being armed with some kind of theological armor then sooner or later will get consumned by it.
    When you stare too long at the abyss the abyss stares back.
     
  5. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    Yup, thinking about death has depressed me lately. I'v been trying to get my self out of it, but without religion being a real part of my life it's hard. Just have to hope there's a afterlife, that consciousness is separate from the body and will live on. Also have to just try to be happy, no matter what happens after we die, there's no excuse to not try to live the happiest life you can.
     
  6. Amiga

    Amiga 80s
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    If consciousness is separate from the body and live on is true, it's not something you can remember by evidence of your life today. You live on as someone not you as you do today as someone that is only you. You, as you know it, will be gone either way, sorry.

    Just enjoy it.
     
  7. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    If body and consciousness are separate

    My own theory is that our consciousness is limited while where in this life, that once we die all of our previous memories return to us. I feel like in a way life on earth could be just a video game my soul decided to play along with 7 other billion souls just for the experience. Or this could be our very first form of life, our souls could have just been born.

    The theory's could are endless if indeed body and consciousness are separate, but all to me, seem unrealistic, but again, me being conscious right now is incredibly unrealistic, this world and life in general is unrealistic if the universe is just a random meaningless.

    I still cant grasp the concept of how something can come from nothing. Something had to always exist. Whether that be a tiny random particle or God, both coming from absolute nothingness is mind blowing to me.
     
  8. malakas

    malakas Member

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    Try reading The Myth of Sisyphus by Camus.
    Or if you are a trully religious person Kierkegaard.
    For something more light "Man's Search for Meaning" by Frankl.
     
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  9. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    I think you misunderstood what I meant by respect in this sense. Additionally, you're not from the United States and (no offense) likely do not understand what I mean by this in relation to our society.

    Probably now more than ever, we pretend that death will not come. The culture is geared towards preserving youths. This is especially true in market segments geared towards women.

    Elders are not respected as much as in some cultures. So an outline for aging gracefully (if there is such a thing) is lost on many of us.

    I'll write more about this when I can.
     
  10. malakas

    malakas Member

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    My dear..I may not be american but I'm still an internet user and from the western world so I have a pretty good idea of what you mean. You mean the fixation with perversation of youth and vanity, and self blindness to the inevitable that is old age, and the fatal strike of death, right?
    But what I want to counter this with, is that in the previous centuries even millenia men and women didn't exactly contemplate on death. They tried to blind themselves to it and forget and were as afraid as the modern human. OR they had their religions that talked about the afterlife to find some kind of solace.
    There have been countless archaelogic discoveries of beauty products/formulas that were intent to hide aging in ancient Egypt/Greece/Rome and later in the middle ages. Plus we have to take into account that in previous centuries the span of the human life wasn't so long as it is today. Most died were dead by fifty. They died in their physical primes by war/diseases/famines.
     
  11. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    The thing that gets me is the people thinking that anybody in the future is going to want to bring them back.

    There is a persistent narcissism in the thinking of the people who freeze themselves where this doesn't even occur to them. The assumption seems to be that these people think the world can't get along without them.

    The types who are most likely to freeze themselves, are going to be the people least likely that society wants back in a future, "more civilized" era. If you pulled, for instance, JP Morgan out of a cryogenic bath and dropped him into the modern world, it would be like letting a pit bull loose in a china shop. What felony will he commit first? (Putting aside the fact that deodorant wasn't a thing for almost all of his life).
     
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  12. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    They might avoid death, but they will also have avoided self.

    Peter Pan syndrome combined with advertisements glorifying it to the public is pretty much universal by now. The US won that war...

    Capitalism at work, baby.
     
  13. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Being brought back later is as much an adventure as going to Mars
    The risk seeks to be lower because you life is over either they bring you back or not

    If you do it while you are still healthy and viable that is more of a risk but at the end of life
    It is like Playing the lottery - probably won't win but you could.

    Since i believe we come back in so form or another or at the least transition to another plane
    It might be nothing more than a delaying issue. imagine learning you are stuck in your own head for centuries .. no output or input . . . . . how insane might your go
    How torturous might that be?

    There are a bunch of variables to consider
    but hey . . .some people just like to jump out of planes and pull the cord
    To Boldly Go Where No Man Has gone Before. . ..

    Rocket River
     
  14. Amiga

    Amiga 80s
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    I think that's avg and is so much higher today due to modern medicines and technology. But in the old days, if they get pass those very early death (they have an extremely high infant mortality rate) due to common diseases, they probably live just as long and maybe even more healthier than modern society. It's the early infant and childhood death that bring the avg down.

    But death were also much more common around everyone in the old days. I think they see it and witness it personally more. They also aren't online and connected all the time like today society. They have ample spare time to sit around, doing nothing or do some redundant chores over and over, so they likely think and contemplate things like death more than today society. Today society is probably too busy with the next email, twitter and facebook to think too much of anything.
     
  15. Amiga

    Amiga 80s
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    The universe is amazingly lawful. I don't see why we would think our consciousness or something bigger is an exception. As with how it seems to come from nothing or that it's always exist and never ending, if there is a conscious that span multiple lives, it would exists in that realm of possibility - never ending and always existing in some form. And so we always exists, but we can't remember anything from it. Maybe some of us can? Maybe there are an unlimited "us" that is following the law of nature, going from birth to death, and repeating and if "you" are "lucky" enough to end up in a life-form that is advance enough, you get expressed and know, but if not, it keeps going, with no "you" to be expressed.

    It's really an exciting period of time though. Technology is advancing extremely fast and we are on the edge of understanding brain, conscious, mind... I hope to get a solid glimpse of that before death.
     
  16. Buck Turgidson

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    Could unfrozen Ted Williams still hit .300?
     
  17. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    Avoiding death I think is more likely to be by uploading your consciousness online somehow and then downloading it into a life like robot or by the adding nanobots and tech improvements to the human body. Nanobots would replace dying/aging cells and you never really age but retain all the knowledge and experiences. I think it some or most of this will be possible in the future but I don't think the cryo makes sense because once you die your consciousness is gone.
     
  18. PhiSlammaJamma

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    I think I would like to implanted into a stealthy drone, and then enter the space program.

    The key to happiness would be interesting. Is it being creative, family, is it the thirst for knowledge and recognition, or materialism. or being human. All Human needs like sex, shelter, air, and food are removed from the equation.

    I would do it.
     
  19. TheRealist137

    TheRealist137 Member

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    If your brain gets uploaded into another body or a computer, are you really "you"? You would be a copy of yourself but that copy has no physical connection to you. She will still be dead.

    Cryogenics is not worth it to me unless my physical self is revitalized in full form.
     
  20. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    That's what I feel like, It may be possible to make a computer programmed to be just like me but In no way can I imagine that it would actually be my consciousness transferring into a computer. Kind of like how a clone still wouldn't be me.

    I feel like altering DNA to stop aging and infusing new cells to make us biologically immortal like a starfish would be something more likely to work in the future.
     

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