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The Republican revolt against democracy, explained in 13 charts

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by deb4rockets, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    We are using two different definitions of authoritarian. I am using this one:
    "Favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom."
    You are using this one (or something similar):
    "Of, relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people."
     
  2. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Ya the later is the more classical definition of "Authoritarian", the later is a hyper partisan new from of the definition used by libertarian extremists who don't understand why we have driver licenses or auto insurance requirements.
     
  3. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    According to Mirriam-Webster, the first recorded use of the word authoritarian was in 1861, in the way I was using it. It's limitation to iron handed rule by an unelected elite was a later development of the word. That is just what the dictionary says though.
     
  4. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Understand your personal freedoms end as soon as it effects the personal freedoms of another Individual. Let's give an example of government regulation to reduce smog. A company's personal freedom to emit smog ends when it flares up asthma symptoms up and asthmatic Individual.
     
  5. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    So you have abandoned your claim that I am using a new fangled radical libertarian interpretation of a word then and now want to engage in a discussion on the limits of personal freedom?
     
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  6. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Yes because you have a very wrong definition of "personal freedoms". Your notion of "authoritarian" is wrong because of your incorrect application of "personal freedoms".

    Philosophy 101: your freedom to swing your fist ends when your fist reaches my nose.

    It's a common enough phrase I'm sure you've heard before.

    That applies to industry regulation and pandemic guidelines.
     
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  7. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    Nope he's just an asshole.
     
  8. London'sBurning

    London'sBurning Contributing Member

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  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    That’s a pretty extreme definition of “authoritarian” and while yes there may be historical backing to the definition it’s not really helpful to a modern debate. Accepting that definition then both Sweden and the PRC are authoritarian states.

    Further as your own argument shows it paints into a corner. As you’re stating both Republicans and Democrats are authoritarian but since Libertarians aren’t anarchist and still recognize the need for some laws and a state to enforce them they are authoritarians to.
     
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  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    If we’re taking history and political philosophy that forms the basis of the US Constitution Enlightenment philosophy doesn’t view personal freedom as being in opposition to an authority expressed through a system of laws.
    “The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom. For in all the states of created beings, capable of laws, where there is no law there is no freedom.” John Locke Second Treatise on Government.

    As such while they might not have used th term “authoritarian” they certainly wouldn’t have considered being subject to an authority under a system of laws as being opposed to freedom.
     
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  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    Good ****.
     
  12. Rokkit

    Rokkit Contributing Member

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    like i said, propaganda has you conditioned well. To think that attempts to stop covid from killing people during a worldwide outbreak is 'authoritarian' (especially as we've seen selfish people not giving a **** and not doing them from day one) is utterly batshit enough as it is (without even going into the desire to get some bigotry in), but not surprising that you've adopted that because it is very much the message the right wing machine has been pushing.

    your party worships a reality tv host who who tried to get his lunatic militia members to violently overthrow an election to keep himself in power. You thinking anyone else is 'blind' is ridiculously insane.
     
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  13. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    Every government is authoritarian to differing degrees. The question is: where do you want your government to fall on the balance between authoritarian and libertarian? The other question is: where do you want your government to fall on the balance between capitalist and socialist?
    My party (in as much as I have one, I am registered no party preference) had a guy with a boot on his head named Vermin Supreme in their presidential debates. As far as I know, nothing about it has anything to do with a tv host.
     
  14. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    These are child like paradigms.

    Here's why with just one example. What side of the scale of "authoritarian vs Libertarian" is limiting smog output from corporations? On one hand it's "limiting freedoms" of corporations but on the other hand it's allowing a citizen's freedom to not have asthma attacks when they go outside and breathe the air.

    Hence why that paradigm is silly. Libertarianism can often restrict freedoms of Individuals to do things like safely trust eating the produce they buy at stores or safely drinking the tap water out of their faucet so on and so forth.
     
  15. B@ffled

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    This post is straight up projection. Take a look at D.C. surrounded by barbed wire. No good crises left to waste, as they say.... I'm sure you consider yourself 'woke'. I'll just say I'm awake and leave it that. The language that there is a 'cult' is clearly talking points used in the left wing media. You must be a member of the Blue Anon group... :D:cool: (I was really just looking for way to use the Blue Anon term...because it's funny...to me..)

    Take a look at Biden right now and be honest with yourself. Is this what you voted for? Everyone knew his condition was deteriorating, which is why Nancy pushed the 25th so hard last year. That wasn't about Trump and we all knew it. Now it's playing out. Biden isn't gone yet. But what's the odds on him finishing a 4 year term? +1000?

    I got a Q meeting to go to. The Shaman is giving sermon and I don't want to miss it. Peace.
     
  16. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Again not really helpful. You could also say "Every government is Fascist to differing degrees." and from a purely technical definition yes that would be true as every government has some level of Nationalism, police power and military industrial complex like Mussolini's Italy and Nazi Germany.

    Understand that government's differ on the amount of how much regulation they have and the amount of centralized power they have. "Authoritarian" as the term is accepted to be used is a state that is not democratic or subsumed democracy to a centralized power. As such while both the PRC and Sweden have relatively high amounts of regulation the PRC is a one party non-democratic state that is rightfully called "Authoritarian" while Sweden is a multiparty democratic state.
     
  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Of course it wasn't like the Capitol was actually stormed on Jan. 6th with a lot of online talk that it was going to be stormed again on around March 4th.
     
  18. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    It is only not helpful if your are getting caught up on an overarching label instead of looking at things on a spectrum.
    Obviously I do understand that, as that is both entirely my point and what I am describing when using the phrase more authoritarian and less authoritarian.
    That is a definition of authoritarian, yes. If I were trying to compare two different states and one was a totalitarian dictatorship and the other was a highly regulated social democracy, that would be a good definition to use. I am comparing two political parties in the same nation state that differ more in degree than in kind. If you plot them on politicalcompass.org, both are right authoritarian. This is not some arcane definition that is never used, it is a normal term in political discourse.
     
    #98 StupidMoniker, Mar 10, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2021
  19. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Your basing your argument in politicalcompass.org? Really? That is a single metric by a single Individual based on his personal biases.

    You first need to understand the basic concepts of "personal freedom" before you can make claims on what "Authoritarian" is.
     
  20. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    It was illustrative.
    I think you need to understand the basic concepts of personal freedom. If you think the government closing down private businesses because of a pandemic coincides at all with personal freedom, you need to learn quite a bit.
     

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