It's the equivalent of an atheist speaking at a christian funeral and saying, "he's dead and he is not with god."
In light of the truth regarding the Tillman situation, I can't believe giddyup still has the gall to defend the illegal actions (however obliquely) of W and his administration's acolytes.
Be careful who you invite to speak at funerals... What these folks said is the equivalent of Christian pablum and we are headed towards charges of civil right violations...
has this letter that kevin tillman wrote in 2006 been posted yet? if i bolded the important parts it would end up being the whole letter so i will not bold anything. supposedly pat tillman felt the same way - and ive heard interviews w/ tillmans family where they allege that these beliefs might have gotten him killed. at the 2:20 mark bill mahr asks him straight up "the whole thing is fishy - even initial medic reports say he was murdered - was he deliberately attacked by his own troops" tillman refuses to answer directly, instead agreeing that something is "fishy" and there was definitely a cover-up. as far as people calling this guy a "jerk" - the dude is an army ranger - ive got a cousin who is a major in the 10th mountain division - army ranger w/ about 5 tours at this point - he and all his buddies talk the exact same way - those dudes do not mince words.
Really! To say that the recently deceased is with God is really pushing the envelope. Shoulda known better. Infected by Dick Cheney no doubt.
If you came to my funeral and spouted off about religion or god, I'd get out of the casket and kick your ass. To someone who is not a believer, especially when their family isn't either, it is very offensive. As offensive as me going to your funeral and telling everyone how you're not sitting with St. Peter, but instead, you're worm food and nothing more.
Yes it is offensive to some people. If you don't respect the wishes of the deceased and their family it is offensive. I'm sorry you don't understand that.
We don't disagree. But what are the facts? Is there any indication that these two people defied the family wishes and went ahead with with their generic Christian sentiments? Just because Richard Tillman didn't like their remarks and lashed out against them doesn't mean that they deliberately defied the family's wishes. Lord knows that childish profanity always adds to a memorable occasion... My guess would be that no one thought about the importance of excluding traditional kind of comforting Christian remarks because no one knew that Richard would go off. Not liking the remarks after the fact is one thing but furiously excoriating those who made them is another and making them when asked not to is still another. Can we get some facts here? Again, I ask is there any evidence that McCain and Mrs. Arnold made these remarks against the express wishes of the Tillman family? I've seen nothing to that end.
Stop imposing YOUR standards on someone's else freaking funeral. Jesus Christ. How self centered are you? My guess would be it would be a smart idea to not just assume you can go ahead and start talking about god or religion at someone's funeral without first doing a little bit of research about who the person was, and also what their family personally believes. To get up there and say something about what a hero he was wouldn't require evoking god or religion, but they didn't do that, they got up there and probably unwittingly trampled all over the secular feelings of the deceased and the family. Negligent at best, malicious at worst. Either way, inexcusable. But hey, that's your forte, right? Making excuses for jackasses and their jackassery. So I guess no one should be surprised at the righteous indignation you're showing here in trying to paint at THE TILLMAN'S as the ones out of line when it is THEIR ceremony and THEIR family member who died.
the other thing is that these people who obviously didnt even know pat tillman as a person got up and spoke at his funeral and acted as if they did. his brother had every right to say what he did.
Measured against all other "eulogies," the ones offered by McCain and Mrs. Arnold are 99.99999% in accord for theme and content with other similar eulogies.......... so that would make my point of view not self-centered at all. Check yours please. When you can't disagree with my POV without attacking me personally, you have lost. I totally agree with your "negligent at best, malicious at worst possibilities but maliciousness has never been outright charged much less proven. And the Tillman family invited the luminaries to speak. If it mattered that much to them, they could have censored the content better. I'm not showing any righteous indignation. I made a small comment that the guy was rude and out of control in lashing out against speakers who were paying respect to his deceased brother. I didn't start a thread criticizing Richard Tillman's remarks. I responded to what seemed like an effort to lionize what I consider to be juvenile and inappropriate remarks. I'm not even as chagrined that at that moment in his pain he let loose a string of F-bombs at his brother's funeral. I find it far more disgusting that he chooses to broadcast a tape of them on TV three years later as part of a promotion of his mother's book.
sorry giddy, you're full of it on this one. If a Christian in your family died, and Muslim came to the funeral and started saying how Mohammad's teachings enabled that family member to be the great person he was, and because he lived his life in accordance with the Q'uran and that Allah would take care of him in the after life, you would be offended. You might handle it differently, but if the scenario I mentioned happened, you wouldn't say someone was rude for calling out the Muslim for imposing his beliefs on the deceased Christian.
Again, you are making it sound like those speakers wrested the microphone from someone and had their bodyguards fending off the crowd. By all indications, they were invited speakers... so your analogy, while understandable, is not very similar to what happened here. People don't just show up uninvited to funerals and dominate the proceedings. Even Harold and Maude sat inconspicuously in the back. I understand his objections. I think the foul language distracts from his concerns.
Giddyup, it seems like you are so in love with your opinion that you seem to be ignoring the posts of all the people here that disagree with you. There's nothing I can really add that wouldn't be repetition. Except this. His foul language makes him come across as condescending and I probably wouldn't want to be his friend or work with him in real life...but that doesn't make him wrong for saying what he said. I get the impression you feel a need to argue this because you find it offensive when people disagree with your point of view as it regards religion and politics. Maybe you find it threatening and un-American. If you want to discuss that, start another thread, then, because Pat Tillman is "****ing dead."
I'm not saying they weren't invited. That doesn't matter one or the other whether they were or not. Actually I believe they were there because their campaign staff called the family, and said that Tillman meant a great deal to the nation etc., and the politician would be honored to come and say a few words in tribute to Pat Tillman. The family then agreed, and the politicians came. The analogy I mentioned doesn't insinuate the Muslim wasn't invited to speak at your Christian relatives funeral. I'm not sure where you are getting the whole idea that I or anyone else is saying they weren't invited. The point is they wanted to speak, they didn't know much about the deceased, and said things in their speech that were offensive to the family and would have been offensive to Pat Tillman. The funeral is an emotional time for the family and any reactions they had seem reasonable.
I haven't ignored anyone's posts; in fact, I've addressed each one of them and I've fairly refuted the accusations made. I would daresay that people are ignoring the points I've made. 1. People seem to think that McCain and Maria just should have known better so the criticism of them is deserved. If the family who invited them to speak cared that much about it, they should have given them better guidance. 2. People are running wild with insinuation that McCain and Maria defied the family's wishes in their spiritual expressions. There has not been one whit of evidence offered to back this up. It's probably an inconvenient truth that they were invited and were provided no guidance whatsoever about what to or not to say. If there is some evidence that the speakers ignored the family's wishes, someone please provide it. Richard not liking what was said is NOT evidence of the speakers defying the family's wishes. IF you read what I wrote, my main criticism was his pimping the video on Maher's show to gain publicity for book sales. I think his remarks at the funeral were inappropriate but we can cut him some slack there due to the freshness of the wound. You'd never find MOST PEOPLE being that foul-mouthed at any funeral... the real crassness is trotting it out three years later as some focal point of controversy to sell books.
I think there is one misunderstanding. Richard speaking up at the funeral is direct evidence that McCain and Maria defied the family's wishes. It left little doubt that the family wished speakers wouldn't impose their idea of God onto Pat Tillman. Their wishes were certainly defied. It isn't direct evidence that those wishes were expressed to the politicians before their speeches, however. That is a fair but not totally important point to make. It might make the politicians insensitivity slightly more understandable but it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't assume everyone is like them, and speak that way at a funeral.
