The Qur’an and Islam

It is bizarre that the 'fundamentalists' are the whacked out ones.

Could it be that the religion itself is infact whacked the eff out ?

 

^thanks for your contribution!

 

Maybe the fundamentalists are TRULY keepin it real.

 

or it could very well be that you are an ignorant bigot with brain damage.. hmm..

 

Touchy touchy.

Maybe i'm just conveying a devils advocate perspective?

Is it not allowed to question the merits of religion?

Is asking the question as to whether religion is harmful and irrational in itself a bigoted stance?

hmm yourself.

We can discuss it, or we can resort to insults, your choice.

 

I was addressing this part of your OP

I appreciate the distinction you’re making with respect to the term “traditional Islam”, btw, because I have very similar feelings about the term “fundamentalist Christianity”. In most cases the people who are called fundamentalists are the ones who DO NOT follow the fundamentals of the Christian religion.

 

I don't think it is the Quran that makes the fundamentalist Muslims the way they are. If you read the Quran, you would find it very similar to the Bible. It teaches the same principles of any religion. It is all the supplemental **** they set up to it. Each sect sets up their own supplemental books, the majority of Muslims also follow what is known as the hadith (which is supposedly the words of Muhammed but written hundreds of years after his death so its more hearsay and other bull**** like that).

Keep in mind this, the Quran NEVER once mentions virgins in heaven. Yet all of these suicide bombers do it believing they will get it.

 

Please try to avoid calling them fundamentalists.

Being a fundamentalist of something requires that you strictly stick to the fundamentals of something.

Unless you believe that those people are sticking to the true fundamentals of Islam?

 

I'll do this in parts because it's a hectic day and want to put some thoughts here. Please pay attention to my wording because it is crucial to understanding.

Quran
Al Quraan means "the recitation". The Quran book we have today is a collection of messages received by Muhammad PBUH from God through the angel Gabriel. This book is not arranged in the chronological order that the messages were received.

The "author" of the Quran is Allah. It is Allah speaking throughout the book. He does quote many people so please be wary of taking things out of context. Muhammad PBUH is, therefore, the chosen messenger of the Quran. He is also a Prophet and Messenger of Islam. There is a distinction there to be made.

Back to the issue of chronological order. Different parts of the Quran were received by the Prophet PBUH for different purposes. Some were event based for example there is a controversy regarding alcohol, and then a certain amount of verses were sent regarding them later.

To understand the nature of it, you have to know that it was received over 22 or 23 years. The text of the Quran is 114 chapters. Contrary to popular belief, each revelation over those 22 or 23 years almost never constituted a chapter or a page or anything specific. The current structure of the book was not determined until a bit later.

The revelations were written down as they came. This is why historians only find parts of it dating back to the Prophet PBUH's lifetime (rather than a complete copy). It was received in chunks therefore it makes sense that it will be found in chunks moreso than complete form. The purpose of these writings was only to aid in the memorization. Not to form a book or a reference.

The Prophet PBUH had "readers"and "writers". They were quizzed by him constantly. Much like kids in school today that get tested/quizzed with oral questions. This would be done in groups so that they can cross-reference writings - the Prophet PBUH, remember, was illiterate. Which was perfect, because the Quran is and was meant to be memorized. That is considered its strength. There were scores of people memorizing what he was saying to the dot and he spent his days testing and quizzing and rating and correcting them.

Once the final verse was revealed, it was time for what Muslims call the miracle of the Quran. 20+ years of revelation with different topics, different length, spread out unevenly, covering everything there is to cover in life. The Prophet PBUH gathered up his readers and writers and recited all the verses in a way that turned it all into one coherent book. To illustrate, say for example there is a chapter with 10 verses. Those verses could each have come 5 years apart on different occasions for different reasons. Suddenly those 10 verses put together form a coherent chapter. This applies to all 114 chapters or over 6,000 verses.

The Prophet PBUH then proceeded to make everyone write it down, again for the purpose of memorizing it. Then he quizzed them all again. Until they all knew it perfectly.

The people of the Arab world at the time were largely illiterate. They loved narration. They loved poetry and story telling. So when the Quraan was completed people tried to write the book, just based on stories here and there. The "Qura" of the Prophet PBUH were the people who were readers/writers and were those who were given the title "Qura" by the Prophet PBUH for having memorized it perfectly. THEY did not write it and spread it. They spread it the same way they received it, memorization. Then everyone started to write it out of fear of forgetting.

The Prophet PBUH passes away and two Caliphs/Kings later, Uthman Ibn Affan brings the Qura together fearing that they are getting old and that people begin fabricating things as it spreads. He compiled the Quran with complete consensus. He then sent copies for free to all corners of the kingdom. At least one copy of those compiled by Uthman Ibn Affan can be seen today in Uzbekistan. I think there may be one in Egypt as well.

(Now that I've laid down the foundation, I'll be back to comment on Grizzled's post later..)

 

Mathloom,

I am just wondering if you are by any chance an Islamic scholar? Your posts reflect such a deep commitment to precision and accuracy that it almost seems as if you were writing an entry for a scholarly journal or something. I get that same feeling from MadMax and Grizzled on Christianity. Are there other posters of different faiths (Judaism or Buddhism) who could educate us about their particular faiths in a similar manner as you do with Islam?

I am not religious at all, but these discussions definitely help me learn more about the different religions, it is like taking a class in comparative religion, but without having to pay for tuition ;-)

 

I'm taking a traditions of Islam class as we speak. Honestly, it's getting hard to tell the difference between Christianity and Islam. Their core values are really similar, the way they act, the way they both dedicate themselves to God, they both have this constant need for ritualism, it's just all the same in soo many effing ways.

In some ways, this class affirms a belief in God for me, in others, seeing the similarities, seeing how these people have so much in common and yet they point the finger at the other and fight, it makes me soo sick I start to doubt if there is a God.

The overlaying theme I get from Islam is this: live for God, do good for others especially those who cannot help themselves, repent when you sin, and understand we are all just human. Above all, focus on the afterlife, it is far more important than you're life right now. Powerful yet somewhat familiar, no?

 

I think the basic tenets or at least aim of the Abrahamic religions is the same if you sum them up in a few words. That being said, there is no doubt your statement is still an oversimplification of things. I understand the natural appeal of simplicity to most people, we prefer narrowing most things down to a soundbite or two so that we can just move on to other things. But at least for our own sake as human beings, and especially in matters of faith and the grand pursuit of "Truth" or meaning in our lives, is it not worth exploring a bit more beyond just skimming the surface of such an important (if not THE most important) aspect of what makes us humans, namely our souls or spirituality? Narrowing all of them down to "being the same ol' same ol'", I think, is more reflective of the person's laziness or unwillingness to truly think, or his inability or unwillingness to invest more time and effort to truly understand the differences, as well as explore the similarities, even judge each on its own merits without getting bogged down into a silly contest of which is better in a never ending game of one upmanship.

Whether you are pondering your own existence or seeking spiritual nourishment, we ALL must face these questions at some point of our lives. I would certainly hope that people of all walks of life would take the time to actually educate themselves a bit about ideas or theories on creation, life, death, and justice. I have a hard time believing that anyone is above struggling with these questions or aspects of our existence, even if you purposely ignore the topic it is inevitable that your mind will drift there one of those days. It is too important to ignore.

 

Just to expand on what you said here, the 5 pillars of Islam are (source: wiki) Shahada (Profession of Faith), Salah (prayers), Zakah (Giving of Alms), Saum (Fasting during Ramadan) and Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca).

Everything in the Quraan is fairly simple to follow. The number of differences in practice are few. However, the main difference would be in the fundamentals of the religions.

Also, it depends on the sect of Christianity. A unitarian, based on practices, has one foot in the door of Islam. A Catholic would be the other extreme with respect to Islam.

 

I wish!! That's a great compliment. The truth is I'm faaaar faaar from it, though I wish I could be. The trouble is finding the right place to learn where you can trust them not to be biased or skewed.

It's also very difficult to find a school that is thinking about the way forward rather than focusing solely on strcitly recreating the past.

I'm glad my posts are helpful though! I would also love to here more from any experts on the board on other religions or otherwise.

 

Now onto what is most misunderstood..

The Sunna
Now, just to clarify, the word Sunna is unrelated to sects in Islam (Sunni/Shiite/etc). The Sunna simply refers to sayings, actions and anything related to the Prophet PBUH which have been recorded in the form of Hadith. It is mandatory on all sects of Islam and there is no debate regarding this. There are minorities which debate the authenticity of the texts we know as Hadith today. But no one denies that if we knew what the Prophet PBUH did, we are to take that as an example.

The reason we have this, as Muslims, is that we consider Muhammad PBUH to be the best person in the world. It says in the Quraan to follow his example. To take what he gives and leave what he wants us to leave.

Similarly, the next best examples are the remaining Prophets. The only distinction is that we know for sure that the Prophet PBUH was protected from making mistakes - he is sinless.

Grizzled,

I believe that the interpretation of Hadith is the source of degeneration of Islamic practices. It is EXTREMELY important that I re-state that this is just my view. My views will rarely reflect those of the typical Islamic scholar. Let me give an example.

There is a hadith which states the Prophet PBUH routinely used to quickly put the tip of each finger in his mouth to clean it following a meal.

Typical scholar interprets this as: Do the exact same with your meals. Variations would include whether to always eat by hand or just apply the same practice to your spoon/fork.

The minority and my view goes more like: Don't waste any food whatsoever. Ever. You must get only as much as you need. If you have extra food you are now responsible in ensuring that the extra food is not wasted. There is another Hadith which says that when you eat, you should leave 1/3rd of your stomach empty, 1/3rd filled with liquid/water, and the other 1/3rd with food. To me the more Hadiths you read, the clearer it becomes you should not waste food and the best way to do this is avoiding having extra food rather than finding a solution once you've finished eating.

Now, in both cases, this is not a cute little story. Whatever the interpretation, it is MANDATORY. It is a sin to not do what the Prophet asks/tells. We don't take this as a spriritual example which ties into other things etc etc.. No, a rule must be derived here. That rule (however you interpret it) becomes part of the law. Is breaking it a punishable offence on earth? No. After earth? Probably, but again that's subject to a limitless number of things.

The difference here is when a Muslim goes on, for example, a business trip. Do you imitate the Prophet PBUH on a business trip in Japan? The majority view would be that you gotta do what you gotta do. But again, mine and the minority view is thatyou should just not waste food and also that doing so in this day and age while you are a representative of Islam does more harm than good.

That's just a small example of how things stayed put. But in a world that is moving forward, staying put means you are falling behind.

Also, and this is the most important thing I'll say here, this line of thinking can not be applied to everything. If the Prophet gave an order, it is an order, no ands, ifs or buts about it. My example is that of someone recording that the Prophet PBUH did something routinely. You can not then do the following (for example):

- Say that alcohol was bad in the past but has become an acceptable tool in social interaction. Alcohol is prohibited in the Quraan and in the Hadith. If it enters your system, your prayers will not be accepted for over a month. Prayers are mandatory. The word for prayer in Arabic means the connection. To be unable to connect for over a month is a severe breach of the law.

- Move the base. It is not suddenly ok to pray in your heart only and not observe the 5 prayers. There was an order from God to pray and lots of begging on the Prohet PBUH's part to reduce praying from 500 times a day to 5 times a day. He showed us how to do it, and told us to do it. He told is what God likes in prayer and what God would like us to leave out.

Always important to note that in Islam, the Prophet PBUH has seen things that we haven't seen. He has seen everyone in heaven and hell. He went to the seventh level of heaven and spoke with Moses PBUH. Took advice from him even. He is human but God has blessed him in a way that he has seen a lot of things unseen, so when in doubt, imitation is the best. We are incapable of always determining the reasons for certain things. There may be a reason we are not allowed to eat swine that science has not discovered yet. Ofcourse, with all things, God will judge you on effort. Effort includes a person finding knowledge, not just deciding based on the heart. The heart can be swayed by the devil according to Islam. Therefore the true way is to actually gather all earthly information, expert opinions and reading the textual evidence in the Quraan and Hadith. Once you have done all of that, you decide with you heart. God will judge you based on your heart at this point.

I hope that helped.

 

(DEAR ALL, there will be controversial topics in this thread. Please participate but also be mindful of the topic. It is one where disagreements can not be avoided, but disrespect can. Keep it civil and always note that for the most part, each person is tating their own beliefs/opinions and should not have any intention to degrade your beliefs.)

Now, to get the the core of your point.. I agree with you completely that there is a disconnect between what tradition Muslims used to practice and what Muslims practice today.

I should note that Allah chose for the Quraan to be descended to this region with good reason. Allah specifically regarded the Arabs as the most corrupt in the world. Sending to the Quraan to them and in their language and with a person from among them is a favor and a blessing, not a birth right. It is also for this reason that Allah protected the Quraan and I quote:

Furthermore, this was to be THE protected book. There is no doubt according to Islam that the Jewish books were changed. As I understand it, the Jewish books have entered the Bible in the form of The Old Testament.

Regarding the verses which you quoted:

Jesus PBUH came to confirm what was before him and to bring nothing new. This means that the concept of New Testament cancelling out, replacing or updating the Old Testament does now work according to Islam. He came to confirm what was before him.

Therein refers to the Quran.

The bolded refer to a decided way. Not a free way. A path that God has decided in advance. Also, judging by what Allah has revealed means here to judge "their" practices by what God has revealed in the Quraan.

Here are some snippets of what Allah has revealed in the Quraan:

This becomes very touchy (As was expected of this topic) but this verse indicates that at the very least those who disbelieve in the Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the messengers (Jesus PBUH included as a messenger) and Allah >> have gone astray. Considering the beliefs of those who have written the Bible according to Christianity, the Bible therefore was written by those who went astray.

Furthermore the following fundamental beliefs derived from the Bible cannot be reconciled with the protected book which is the Quraan:

- Jesus PBUH is God. The main reason being that his birth indicates that there was a beginning and God has no beginning. His existence doesn't begin at any point in time.

- Mary PBUH gave birth to God. It is the view that God does not need a human vehicle to be delivered. Furthermore, Prophets being born is a sign of their humanity. They are humans because they are born and have a beginning and an end. Just like Adam. We are all like Adam. See quote:

*Please read before and after the verse to be sure that "him" refers to Adam and not Jesus PBUH.

Finally, one very important verse regarding scriptures. They hav e been revealed no doubt and exist in parts probably. Allah, according to the Quran, has protected the Quran. The previous books are unnecessary as each Prophet was sent with a book to confirm the bok before him and elaborate on them. That is why the Prophet was handed the final book and he was the final messenger/prophet. Because for some reason God decided that this is where the line would be drawn.

That quote would exclude the Paul, James, etc from the equation of being able to write one of God's books. Because if Jesus PBUH is a messenger then his "signature" or approval of the book is required to make the book valid. As I understand it, the four boosk in the Bible are not signed by those who wrote it much less Jesus PBUH.

As a final note, to understand where the distinction is with regards to the two religions... If I did exactly what Jesus PBUH said, it would be perfect according to the Quran. It would not fall outside the boundaries (according to Islam ofcourse). However, if his message was not distorted, then there would be no need for Prophet Muhammad PBUH. To avoid that distortion again, Allah has protected the Quraan. The same, however, can not be said about Hadith. When it comes to Hadith, its accuracy must be determined in a purely scientific manner.

 

This is interesting to me...

imagine a tension between love and law. on one end of a scale is love...on the other end is law.

my view is that stuff that was clearly added later (not so much to Jesus' words) was stuff that made Christianity move more down the line towards law. The very earliest proclamations or creeds I find are ones that merely recited what happened...without much dogma attached.

fast forward as far as to the 1950's where Pope Pius says, "hey you know what...the Virgin Mary was risen up. That's right. And if you don't believe that, you're not a real Catholic." Never mind the fact that this idea was brand new and that would leave 2,000 years of believers outside his definition of "real Catholic."

Paul at least gets credited with adding more law back in. There are some letters attributed to him that I personally don't believe he wrote....but what do I know? Paul starts with some pretty revolutionary concepts of love I'd say:
"if i have all these gifts, but i don't have love, i'm worthless."

"there is no Jew or Greek; free man or slave; man or woman - they're all one in Jesus."

for that day and time...particuarly coming from someone trained in the law of that day...those statements are revolutionary.


So from my reading of the Koran, I get that if you're correct...that it's purpose was to correct the distortions of the message of Jesus...then Jesus was far less about love and much more about law than I believe. I think this is a problem for Islam, frankly. Because the synoptic gospels which are deemed to be less jacked with (aside from Mark's addition at the end) paint a picture of a teacher who taught that the heart was the thing. And who defied the authorities and religious laws pretty consistently.

 

Good discussion, interesting.

DD