clutchdream -- these are called the "sword verses" of the Koran: "When the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters whereever you find them, and take them and confine them and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush." I've read much more violent verses than this...I found this verse cited in a book I have about the Crusades. I wish I had the entire Koran here. If I remember right there are verses that specifically talk about beheading those who don't acknowledge Allah and Mohammed. If I get some free time I'll see if I can't locate the Koran online or something. Again..laying the blame on the feet of other countries for the actions of these governments and/or people for the violence they participate in (particularly where targets are more likely civilian rather than tactical) is ridiculous. I would also encourage you to look at the established Islamic governments around the world. Many do largely rule through fear based in the Koran. The Taliban is the key example. Hussein is no prince of a gentleman either to his countrymen. How about Qadaffi in Libya?? Hakeem is a great ambassador for Islam...of course the folks who carried out these attacks and many others in the Middle East would say that he is far too moderate to be truly devout to Allah. Last time I checked, Hakeem hasn't "slayed" any idolaters (unless you count Patrick Ewing) as the sword verses seem to command. Again...I'm not saying that Joe Schmoe who is regularly attending mosque here in Houston, Texas is necessarily the kind of person who would carry out these attacks. But I am concerned with the commands of the Koran...and I think we see them play out even among these "moderates" right here in Houston when a guy like Rusdie comes to town. I agree with you that it seems these men who were hanging out at strip clubs weren't true to their faiths either....I'm not concerned with that, because ultimately men all fall short of the glory of God. What I am concerned with is what is commanded in the Koran. And I don't know that I'm willing to rely merely on the comments of the same folks who either were or were represented by those that were shouting "Death to Rushdie" on Monday afternoon. I'll read through it myself and make my own decisions. But those who blindly say, "well i have a friend who is muslim and he says they don't belive that" ain't gonna cut it. The question is, at its core, does it inspire violence in a way that other religions do not. It seems to me that at this point in history it's real hard to make an argument to the contrary. I am not sure what significance you might attribute to the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. There are more Christians than any other religion in the world..that does not necessarily make it's tenents any truer than Judaism. outlaw -- I believe that Christ followed the law of God perfectly...I also read the remarks of Paul about homosexuality. Paul said, "follow me as I follow the example of Christ." As "radical" as guys like Paul were, if Jesus had been engaged in homosexuality, we wouldn't see the admonitions against men with men or women with women. You can choose to believe or disbelieve that as you like! But I'd rather that you didn't assume he was a homosexual...having said that I'm not going to demand your blood for the implication or chant "Death to Outlaw" all day.
Hayes Street Japanese are not Buddhist...nothing of what the Buddha said really remains in their religion/s. They have several spin offs to do with ancestor worship...shinto etc... Actual Buddhism does not play much, if any, role in Japanese daily life...
Hey, Great discussion everyone ... very interesting to sit back and read all this. I'm an Arab-American Muslim, and proud to be one. Ever since Tuesday, I have felt so out of place here, going to work has been the wierdest. People looking at you like you don't belong there, I've had women literally turn around and go back if I was coming their way ... just some crazy stuff. One of the mosques here was vandalized, and another mosque in SF had blood splattered all over the walls. Just some very insane stuff. I've recieved hate mail from random folks I have acquainted through chat rooms ... just stuff I never thought would have happened. Never in my 13 years of being in the States have I ever felt so alienated. But sadly, as soon as I heard the news, I knew this would be a big issue for us in the coming weeks and months. On that note, it is such a breath of fresh air to come to the BBS and see so much sympathy and so much understanding from ALL of you. If the folks I've encountered had even half the compassion of all of you, my week would have been great (relatively speaking of course) So thank you all for keeping open minds, and for not judging all based on the actions of one crazed and fanatical group. Onto the topic at hand ... the problem with Islam. To me, obviously, there really isn't much of a problem. All my life I've been taught to be peaceful, to have respect for others ... so much so, that I can't even argue with anyone anymore Most Arabs are not the stereotypical gun-toting fanatics portrayed in the media ... they are normal human beings, with jobs, families, dreams and hopes much like everyone else. The religion definitely is one that promotes peace. Madmax, so far, after having read the Quran a few times, I have yet to encounter the so-called kill-em-all verses, if I do, I'll be the first to acknowledge them. In my opinion, what has happened is people have used religion as a crutch to gain power, and then they abused its teachings for personal gain. People kill and loot in the name of religion, and twist teachings so they are better suited to their needs. (Isn't that how the King George's version of the Bible came about?) Anything that they do ... yeah my religion said so! End of discussion. If you look at all the religions, monothiestic or polythiestic,the basic teachings are all the same ... love, peace and tolerance. As someone stated, Islam is a foreign and strange religion for most and when the misdeeds of a few are brought to the forefront, they are immediately thought to represent an entire group. I blame the media for this because the only time you hear about Muslims/Islam/Arabs is either when something goes wrong, or when there is news of some human rights violation, or something that would cast them as the bad guys. Give us a chance ... Islam has produced some of the finest thinkers, philosophers, mathematicians, poets and scientists over the years, please don't generalize Wow, that was pretty long huh ... I had so many things to say and so many stray thoughts ... I hope it wasn't boring or too annoying/preachy, I apologize in advance Rockit
the "people" we are dealing with are the ones that follow the Taliban. I do believe there is a difference between Taliban Muslims and Muslims. The Taliban is so backwards and ignorant that they deserve what they get... rH
Ok I'm confused. . . who was doing the ETHNIC CLENSING in Yogoslavia. . . i distinctly remember the Muslims being the victims. Rocket River
rockit, Sorry to hear about your experiences; I hope people 'get it' and that this passes for you quickly. Everyone else, don't think you can name a famous Arab-American? http://www.aaiusa.org/aboutaai/publications/kasem.htm
thank you to the many open minds on this site for not holding a religion responsible for heinous actions. from the bottom of my heart i thank and applaud my fellow americans
MadMax: All I can tell you is that if you want the <i>true</i> Islam, read up on the life of Muhammad. The first thing he did upon arriving to the city of Madinah was organize a peace treaty among the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim inhabitants. There wasn't any "<i>idolator slaying</i>" until the pagan tribes of Mecca showed agression first. How about Islamic civilization at its peak when Muslim and Christian scholars sat together in the libraries of Spain. It is well documented that non-Muslims were always allowed to live in peace and practice their religion in conquered Muslim lands.
I read the Casey Kasem article and I thought I remembered knowing this but I wasn't for sure: "Getting down to business, the founder of an international, billion- dollar engineering firm, Jacobs Engineering Group, is Dr. Joseph Jacobs." I work for a company that is a subsidiary of Jacobs Engineering Group. So, I found that very interesting that Casey would mention Dr. Jacobs. BTW - He's in his 80s and from what I've been told by people who have visited the Jacobs corporate office in Pasadena, he still comes to work every day! I'll be lucky to be working when I'm 80 let alone be alive!!
MadMax, Steve Francis, and all those who may have misconceptions on Islam ... I urge you with all my heart to read the Quran for yourself - rather than through 2nd or 3rd hand information - or as thacabbage mentioned, look in to the life and teachings of Prophet Mohammad. I say this not in attempt to sway you by any means, but rather so you have a clearer idea of what the true Islam stands for and so you can enligthen others who do not have the forsight that you have in inquiring about other faiths. Anyways, here are a few Islamic teachings that are derived from the Quran, and are pertinent to the present situation at hand. "All of mankind is My Family and the best of you is the one best to them." "One who killed one (innocent person), it is as if he killed all of mankind." "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." "Do not let the hatred of some people distract you from justice; do justice, that is nearest to piety." "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well and that if they do wrong you will do wrong; but accustom yourselves to do good even if people do not do good, and not to do wrong even if they do evil." Again, while I am alarmed at some of the glaring misconceptions some of you have about Islam, I'm encouraged that you are already miles ahead of those who's sheer ignorance is showing through their disrespectful acts against Muslims everywhere. Muslims as a collective group are not perfect by any means. If the people who are responsible for the pain the world is suffering this week are indeed terrorists from the middle east, consider them terrorists who happen to be Muslim. I for one, only consider them Muslim by name. Because their actions are not only against the fundamental teachings of Islam but they are cowardly, sick and brutal. Yes, the Quran does say we should fight for our religon. However, those circumstances are entirely different and one which I will not go into at this time due to practicality reasons (this freaking post is already too long! ) But I say this with ultimate sincerity; the true Islam is one that is peaceful and that accepts all those that belong to the human race. Azim da Dream
Whoa. Killing those who don't believe in Allah/Mohammed. That's insane. It's a good thing there's nothing like that in the Bible. Well, except for Luke 19:27, where Jesus says - "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." As for "sword verses" in the Koran, what are these verses in the Bible called (other than ugly, despicable, and violent): Matthew 10:21 - "And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Micah 3:2 is particularly good - "Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron." Amos 4:10 - "I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD." (Well gee, with blessing like that who wouldn't return?) Isaiah 34:3 - "Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood." And there is much much more. So MadMax, I would advice not critizing or talking about the violence in the Koran anymore, especially if you are trying to imply the Bible is not also violent and ugly.
dylan -- I think you really need to read the context of the Bible verses you just quoted. The verse in Luke you attribute to Christ (Luke19:27) .... This is Jesus telling a story about a king who said to his followers to bring those who don't follow him before him so they can be killed. This is not Jesus saying bring those people before me so they can be killed!!! It's called the Parable of the Ten Minas. That's easily the worst misquote I've ever seen of the Bible!! great job! In Matthew 10:21 Jesus is describing what they can expect in the last days. In no way is that a commandment!! This is the second worst misquote I've ever seen. The next verse is, "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." He's teaching them to deal with persecution. great job again, dylan! Christ teaches to pray for your enemies...to turn the other cheek....to suffer humility...and to be ready to be persecuted for your faith. The Old Testament is man reaching to God. I already mentioned this, I think, in previous posts. I said that the Bible and the Torah both chronicle violence and they speak of men calling on God to deliver them from their enemies through violence. This is NOT to be confused with a commandment to kill from God. However, I gladly recognize that it has been used as such for centuries. King David said in Psalm 58: "The righteous will be glad when they are avenged when they bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked." Violent, no doubt. But this is David's prayer to God. Mind you, it was not answered. There is one entire book devoted to God being asked time and time again by the author why He wouldn't just annihilate the wicked. Everytime God gives him an answer he does not like. dylan, please note that I was inquiring from assistance from Muslims. I posted Koran scripture to get clarification on what seemed to me to be direct commands from Allah to draw blood. Twisting the Bible to somehow counter my questions is a strategy you probably want to avoid in the future. rockit and azim -- thank you soooo much for your posts. instead of responding defensively, you both responded intelligently. I read this from the Koran this morning: "Those who believe in the Quran, those who follow the Jewish scriptures and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grive. Ch 5 Verse 72. I read verses that specifically call on those who want to adhere to the will of Allah to fight only in a defensive manner...to never take the offensive. I am very thankful for this better understanding. It puts me more at peace. God bless you guys.
