The Rockets HAVE to solve their long-term problems at the 3 and the 5 in this draft. If they take Yao with 1, they can either trade up and get a good 3 or take an O.K. 3 at 15. My problem with trading the first pick is that I don't see any way to get a good center out of it. And I don't consider Kandi acceptable. If he had EVER played as well during a non-contract year as he did last year, I'd feel differently. But I don't like the idea of taking on a guy who only feels like playing in a contract year. If we can trade for Odom and we can get either Borchardt or Nene (assuming he is a legitimate 6-10 and can be used at center), I can see making the trade. Otherwise, we have to take our chances with Yao.
As far as the 50% debate goes. This was a major sticking point for me at the time when Mo T was just starting his first season in Houston and many fans were ripping his slow start and calling for KT to start. Mo Taylor that season (despite his slow start) averaged 49% from the field and got many high pct looks within the flow of the offense. Taylor was extremely efficient with 13-6 on 49% shooting in only about 28 MPG. The main key point for me is not whether or not the guy scores in a certain way, whether its facing or back to the basket, its simply whether or not you have a player on your team that can hit about half his shots while still shooting a reasonably high volume of them within the offensive flow. This has always been my stance. The reason it usually has to come from a frontcourt player is b/c 99% of the time, guards cannot consistently knock down 50% of shots year after year when taking a high volume of them. This is why MJ was such a phenomenon. Considering the complexion of this team, I would much rather have a player that can get the 50% facing the basket than being deep in the low post and clogging driving lanes. I think given time, Eddie Griffin will be able to do this as well. At Seton Hall, he showed this real quick turn around jump shot that he was able to get off in a hurry. It really wasnt that low and was inconsistent as hell, but he does have some semblance of post moves even tho its not fully out of the low post. According to Jonathan Feigan, Eddie Griffin really works hard in the weight room and has been bulking up. He was saying that Anthony Falsone was impressed by Griffin's dedication in the weight room. As far as Odom posting up.... I have seen him post up with the Clippers moreso before Elton Brand came in. During his first 2 seasons, I saw Odom post up more than he did this past yr. The point I was trying to make in the other thread was that Odom operating out of the high post would be able to create much easier shots for the Rockets esp for Francis and Mobley and provide different looks to the Rockets attack. HP countered that it would take 4 yrs to successfully develop good set plays, but I just dont see it as that. Obviously, you dont do this 48 MPG, but it provides more wrinkles and options. The point is, by making an Odom deal, you are nothing like the Bucks or Celtics. I absolutely despise that brand of basketball and would be the first to call it out. This team would be a whole heck of a lot better b/c they have a player in Taylor that can get high pct shots and still not block the flow of the penetrators and by getting picks 8 and 12, the Rockets could add a banger or two which further separates them from these teams. You have to understand, the Bucks, Celtics and even Minnesota are very very soft inside. They have zero toughness in the middle, and I fear the Rockets will be on that same track if they draft Yao Ming.
Do any of you actually buy the #8, #12 scenario? That to me, is an out and out lie. Conjecture, 'tis... nothing more. As far as Odom over Ming... uhhhh... franchise small forward? hmmm.... doesn't have a ring to it. franchise Center. Damn, that actually sounds good. Small Forwards are a dime a dozen. You risk everything on the Mings and J. Williams of the drafts; power forwards and small forwards are abundant, and in this draft shooting guards are sporadically thrown in to boot. There are plenty of small forwards available later in the draft. This is in fact a 'no brainer' as Carroll Dawson mentioned. This is also in fact, moot. We will draft Ming. We will secure a small forward later in the draft. It is, as Doc Rocket commented, all about the #15. Though Taylor will be suspended at the beginning of next season (a burr in my rear makes me wonder if Taylor will come back w/ a vengeance... or if he'll just come back w/ a Jenny Craig membership), Griffin is apparently becoming beefcake. Our dear Kenny Thomas. Our wonderful Kenny Thomas. Kenny will probably be available. I see Miami in his future. It's all good though, he is a handsome young man and will be daring in a sport coat and t-shirt.
"Do any of you actually buy the #8, #12 scenario? That to me, is an out and out lie. Conjecture, 'tis... nothing more." The whole point of the pro-Odom argument is to get more than just Odom. No where in that 100+ post thread or anywhere else was there a debate of whether or not we should trade the #1 straight up for Odom. I even said myself that this isnt enough value considering Odom's trade value has dropped some. However, Odom and additional picks makes a whole lot of sense imo. Posters were debating including Dakota, HP and ricealum that even with the picks, they'd still rather have Ming. Thats the debate not Odom vs. Ming straight up. Stop trying to twist people's arguments.
I'm not trying to twist anything. Your argument is asinine. The time is now. The pick is Yao. All other conversations are moot. We are drafting Ming. We won't have Odom. We won't get the billion first rounders and everything else that you guys hypothesize as reasons to take exception to Ming. Those things don't exist. The Clippers haven't offered Brand as Rocket!!! was prone to suggest earlier. If you recognize that the team is going to draft Ming, and if you still have concerns, just contrast that reality with something that can actually occur. It doesn't make sense to say "gee we shouldn't take Ming, let's take Odom and Maggette and the #8, and the #12, and...". None of that will occur. Get real.
Achebe- I'm not going to recognize the team is drafting Ming until June 27, or a proclamation by China/Shanghai and the Rockets saying flat out "We are drafting Yao Ming". Tsakalidis was supposed to have to wait for 5 years to play in the NBA. Abdur-Rahim was supposed to be a Rocket. Hakeem was supposed to retire a Rocket. "Things Fall Apart". See the hidden reference?
Achebe, That last post was the biggest crock of garbage Ive read from you. Basically, what your saying is that since the Rockets will likely draft Ming we shouldnt even discuss anything else. Great, whats the point of a message board then? Lets never give differing points of view, lets never discuss anything else because we are just stupid fans that dont know anything better and have to blindly support everything the Rockets do even if we dont agree with it. Real intelligent.
MManal, I think you somewhat misunderstood my post. The bbs is completely to just chat away about anything... but obviously we all agree that some topics are better than others. For example, Collier + Cato for Shaq is ridiculous you'd concede. I would add in that umbrella of ridiculousness the notion that the Clippers are offering Brand (as many people here believe) or two lottery picks and Odom for Ming. I just don't think that it's true. And, I'm starting to get hyped on that #15, like Doc suggested... what can we do w/ that sucker?? (since small forwards are a dime a dozen, particularly in this draft, I'll bet..... a small forward ).
Here's 2 reporters that say otherwise: From Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune: The Clippers have the Nos. 8 and 12 picks in the draft, and it's possible a package of Odom, one or both of the picks and next year's No. 1 (because the Rockets must give next year's pick to the Grizzlies) for this year's No. 1 and Glen Rice could work and benefit both teams. I agree it's asinine for Odom, 8, 12, and 2003 #1, but here's a kwazy guy from Chicago saying it could happen, meaning take away one of those picks, and it's not that far fetched. From Peter "the Prophet" Vescey, NY Post: Look for the Clippers to aggressively pursue the first pick in the draft in hopes of locking into Jay Williams; offering Lamar Odom, Corey Maggette and their No. 1, to Houston, for beginners. Odom, Maggette, 8 for starters. You don't think that can be bargained into Odom, 8, 12? or Odom, Maggette, 8, 12, for 1, 15?This article is a month before draft time, plenty of time to bargain up. Brand is a pipe dream, and I've never even considered him a possibility, but Odom isn't. Drafting Ming and trading KT/15 for Odom is a bigger pipe dream than trading #1 for Odom/8/12. As for possible #15 candidates-the sleeper, IMO I'd say is Chris Jefferies. The "I hope he slips a couple slots" guy in Jared Jeffries (or Tsika-he actually may be close, because he won't be able to do the private workouts like Gasol did because he'll be playing in Italy. I would probably be as excited if we could trade KT/15 to move up for Tsika as I was for the 3 picks for Griffin, of course Odom makes Tsika useless). Most likely though, is Nachbar.
Whoever made the reference to the Thomas led Pistons either were too young or just don't remember Mark Aguirre or Adrian Dantley. 2 6'6 small forwards with a power forwards game. Dantley has a career avg of about 24pts per and Aguirre is around there also. Detroit wasn't really a real threat to Boston until they got Dantley from Utah. They didn't get over the hump until they got Aguirre. The only player that really bucked the trend was Jordan in the first Bulls threepeat, but hell he was the mismatch in the low post. Of course we're talking about probably the best player ever. I can probably stretch my memory a long ways back and I'm willing to bet every team with a ring had an inside presence. In fact, i can just go back to 77 and start there. 77- Port- Walton 78-Wash- Unsled 79-Seat- Sikma 80-LaL- Kareem 81-Bos- Parrish,McHale 82-LAL-Kareem 83-Phi-Moses 84-Bos-Parrish,Mchale 85-LaL-Kareem,Worthy 86-Bos-Parrish,Mchale 87,88-LaL-Kareem,Worthy 89,90-Det- Aguire,Edwards 91,92,93-Chi- Jordan 94,95-Hou-Hakeem 96,97,98-Chi-Jordan 99-Sa-Duncan,Robinson 00,01,02-LaL-Shaq Now if someone can convince me Odom will be able to work the post like Jordan, odds are better in our favor with ming than with another wing player no matter how good the backcourt is. 94,95- 78
NIKEstrad, I agree with you. The Clips can't just give Odom away. KT + 15 is an impossibility. I wouldn't mind trying to trade up for one of the 3's that we might covet---Tsk, Tsk, you know, that guy---but I still can't help but follow the earlier postings of Oeilpere and Troy Baros, even if the former conceded to Doc Rocket on this one. I admit that all signs point MING. If Rudy and CD return from China with "we've got Ming," only then I, too, will concede and say, "OK, so who we gonna get to play the 3? And how?" But I think Krause has a major jones for Ming and I am not adverse to getting Odom, Maggette, and, say, Maybiner Hilario and/or Amare Stoudemire. We might force Chicago into a future #1, say, next year's, or something similar.
NIKEstrad, "you're quoting a Hun to me?". Too bad Jeff's the only one that would get that reference.... but anyway, Smith and Vecsey write a lot. They write a lot about things that don't happen. And, I can find just as many links (actually more), that only conjecture Odom + #8 for the top pick. Either way, it's a pipe dream because we're drafting Ming. If you do, seriously, put all of your faith in articles by Vecsey and Smith, I can find articles by those two that say we're drafting Ming. Hell I can find a lot of those. Or I can find posts on this site that get people like you in a tizzy because of the opportunities to acquire KG. I know which one you'd rather play with, but I don't have that sort of patience anymore. We may as well exert common sense, if it looks like... if it smells like... (btw, just between you and me, we're drafting Ming)
Excellent debates on both sides. Personally, I want Odom. But not at any cost. Odom, #8, #12? It doesn't look that great, but that's because we don't realize this draft has some excellent role players. Projected on NBAdraft.net, this would be the debate: Ming or Odom, Wagner, Borchardt That's actually a good deal. But I would prefer to get Nene Hilario. But I'm actualy comfortable with Cato, as long as he has a very good BACKUP. A little tinkering, and we may be able to get this done: #8 #12 #15 KT for #6 Diop or Mihm or Doleac In order of preferrence Throw in a future pick if it's the latter two Then we'd have: Cato/Diop Griffin/MoT/T-Mo Odom/Rice/T-Mo Cat/Torres Francis/Mooch Would you rather have: Ming/Cato Griffin/MoT/KT Rice/T-Mo/KT Cat/Torres Francis/Mooch Depth, defense and meshing of youth and experience is better in the first I think.
"Whoever made the reference to the Thomas led Pistons either were too young or just don't remember Mark Aguirre or Adrian Dantley. 2 6'6 small forwards with a power forwards game. Dantley has a career avg of about 24pts per and Aguirre is around there also. Detroit wasn't really a real threat to Boston until they got Dantley from Utah. They didn't get over the hump until they got Aguirre. The only player that really bucked the trend was Jordan in the first Bulls threepeat, but hell he was the mismatch in the low post. Of course we're talking about probably the best player ever." First off, Aguirre was acquired via a trade for Dantley and a 1st. Yes it is true that Aguirre did lead the team in ppg in 89 with 18.9. He averaged 14.1 ppg in 90. To bad in the playoffs,he only averaged 12.6 and 11 ppg, respectively. Isiah led the team in playoff scoring for both championship years with Dumars being 2nd in playoff scoring in both. They finish 2nd and 3rd on the team in scoring in 89 and 1st and 2nd in 90. Add the fact that they were complete players and it is pretty easy to surmise that Isiah and Joe D led that Pistons team, not Aguirre. Jordan, the post player, was more during the 2nd 3 peat, not the first. During the first championship run, he a great majority of his points on penetration and outside shooting.
"MManal, I think you somewhat misunderstood my post. The bbs is completely to just chat away about anything... but obviously we all agree that some topics are better than others. For example, Collier + Cato for Shaq is ridiculous you'd concede. I would add in that umbrella of ridiculousness the notion that the Clippers are offering Brand (as many people here believe) or two lottery picks and Odom for Ming." Achebe, there's a huge difference here. Absolutely no one on this board would turn down Collier and Cato for Shaq. Difference is, in that 100+ post thread a LOT of people said that they wouldnt trade Ming for even Odom and the 2 picks. Thus, if everyone had responded, yes I would do it but no way in hell Clips make that offer, then I wouldve brought another offer up for this discussion. If there was nothing to discuss here, posters wouldnt discuss it, plain and simple. This has nothing to do with what is going to happen or what exact offers the Rockets are getting. This is more "What would you do in this situation?"
