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The poor need to pay more taxes

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by rimrocker, Dec 16, 2002.

  1. 111chase111

    111chase111 Member

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    I'm curious. How much do you have to earn to be "rich". That word keeps getting thrown around but what does it actually mean? $100,000.00 per year? $250,000.00 per year? If you earn $40,000 and your wife earns $30,000 you have a combined income of $70,000.00. Does that mean you're rich?

    And how little do you have to have to be considered "poor"?
     
  2. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    I'm guessing this is some sort of bait to get me back into the thread. I closed down this debate with the GSMTFPR comment to Major. There has been nothing of substance posted since then. My classic pieces can not be compared to rimrocker's selective Adam Smith quotes and they *certainly* can't be compared to Refman's amateurish emotionally-charged one liners and sarcasm. B-Bob's silliness was a nice touch, but let's face it folks, my argument stands unchallenged.

    Don't go bear hunting with a stick, rookie.
     
  3. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Where is the bear? All I see is a small yippy little dog.
     
  4. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Maybe he's just a sickly cat we can throw down a gutter.
     
  5. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Remember that part of my post about everybody with 3 functioning brain cells...well I guess we just leanred where you fall on that chart.

    Don't try to slay dragons with a toothpick.
     
  6. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    And don't take on Mothra with a pop-gun.

    (By the way, not only am I ugly... I think I'm a chick.)

    [​IMG]
     
  7. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    Here is my idea on taxes. The numbers I use are for example only since I don't know how much it costs to keep the country running. We should have a flat tax with a standard deduction to cover basic living expenses like $20,000 and pay a flat rate of 20% on all income above and beyond this. We would elliminate other tax deductions except for charities. This way the tax is progressive and fair. It also wouldn't penalize people for wanting to make more money.

    The problem with this tax plan is that it would put too many people out of jobs. Tax Attorneys, accountants, and IRS workers would be out of work because the system would be too simple. Lets face it, complexity keeps people employed.
     
  8. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    I love it when people criticize other people's intelligence and spell words incorrectly in the process.

    Refman, since you are so smart, could you please define the word "leanred"? Thanks in advance. LOL
     
  9. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    It's almost as fun when someone makes fun of one's grammar while using bad grammar themselves.

    Move along, joke.
     
  10. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    I agree. That was the whole point of my post. Still, maybe in 225 years, the ideas of Trader/Rand will be as accepted as Smith... Nah! Trader, you should supplement your Rand readings with some Rand criticisms. Here's the conclusion from a piece by Barry Stoller:

    The popularity of Objectivism was---and remains---largely confined to
    universities and high schools in affluent areas. The reasons for this
    are to found in Rand's tireless assertions that '[a] country without
    intellectuals is like a body without a head'(ibid., p. 12). Not only are
    such pronouncements flattering for students to hear but they are also
    plausible because (middle- and upper-class) students, living in the
    prosthetic environment of a campus, are not directly exposed to either
    the production process or even the circulation sphere of
    capitalism---and, therefore, have no way of knowing where, or how,
    surplus value originates.

    This is not to infer that Objectivism is characterized by rigorous
    thinking. Quite the opposite. Ayn Rand had a conspicuous habit of
    criticizing concepts she didn't understand. Notable examples are her
    critiques of John Rawls' Theory of Justice and B.F. Skinner's Beyond
    Freedom and Dignity. In the case of the former, she actually admitted
    that she didn't even bother to read one word of the book (Rand, 'An
    Untitled Letter,' Philosophy: Who Needs it, Signet 1984, p. 109). Both
    were critiques of book reviews of the books she critiqued (Rand, 'An
    Untitled Letter,' ibid., pp. 102-19; also, 'The Stimulus and the
    Response,' ibid., pp. 137-61)---not exactly a study habit encouraged on
    ANY American campus.

    The strength of Rand's arguments come from the probability that her
    (young, conservative) audience is even less acquainted with the ideas
    that she first explains and then attacks.

    In short, Objectivism is a sort of cliff note intellectualism for people
    too busy, lazy, or stupid to actually be intellectuals. The
    contradiction of a supremacy theory predicated upon the 'superiority of
    smart people' that itself is characterized by and logical
    inconsistencies, emotional reductionism, poor scholarship and, as a last
    resort, suppression of dissent has, of course, delighted liberals and
    other left-wingers for decades. For 'management' class (or wannabe
    management-class) kids who subscribe to Objectivism (the 'challenge to
    2,000-and-a-half years of cultural tradition'), it provides a
    simplistic, narcissistic justification to expropriate as much surplus
    value from workers as biologically possible and politically feasible.



    Doesn't sound like an argument... more like a religion. If it is unchallenged, it is so only in your mind.
     
  11. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    rimrocker --
    My economic opinions and philosophies in this thread have been influenced more by Milton Friedman than by Rand. Milton Friedman won the Nobel Prize, in case you didn't know.
     
  12. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Great...so the Nobel prize winner advocates decreasing taxes on the wealthy and sticking it to the poor. Fantastic. Aren't academians funny? It is really convenient to be able to spout things off when there are no real world consequences to your "beliefs."

    BTW...go ahead and criticize a typo rather than deal with the message. It is what people do best when they have nothing of substance left to offer.

    Also...there is a difference between being a conservative and being a nutcase. Thank you for illustrating the difference for all of us.
     
  13. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Yeah, OK. Except he didn't win for the stuff you're peddling. In most cases, Rand and Friedman are closer than you are with yourself. Throw in a little Hayek and we've got 3 peas in a pod. (Friedman's son, David, is even closer to Rand than his father, suggesting the apple stays on the tree.)

    Some of Rand's followers occasionally take issue with Milton on doctrinaire stands, but right hand or left, it's still mental masturbation.

    (From various web pages.)
    __________
    Those inspired by her ideas have published books in many academic fields and founded several institutes. Noteworthy among these are the Cato Institute, based in Washington, D.C., the leading libertarian think tank in the world. Rand, along with Nobel Prize-winners Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman, was highly instrumental in attracting generations of individuals to the libertarian movement. Also noteworthy are the Ayn Rand Institute, founded in 1985 by philosopher Leonard Peikoff and based in California, and The Objectivist Center, founded in 1990 by philosopher David Kelley and based in New York.
    ____________

    INTERVIEWER: Do you remember reading Hayek's Road to Serfdom? Did that have an impact on you?

    MILTON FRIEDMAN: Yes, it certainly did have an impact. It was a very clear, definite statement of certain fundamental ideas. It was a passionate plea by a passionate man, and so it was very well written, and for those of us who were concerned about these kinds of issues, I think it had a tremendous impact.

    In fact, I've often gone around and asked people what determined their views. I've asked people who were in favor of free markets and free enterprise, who formerly had been of a different view, what caused them to change their mind.

    I'm talking particularly not about economists, not about professionals, but generally ordinary people, most of whom had been socialist or in favor of government control at one time and had come over to free markets. And two names have come up over and over again: Hayek on the one hand, The Road to Serfdom from Hayek, and Ayn Rand on the other, Atlas Shrugged and her other books.
    _______________
    The ideas that F.A. Hayek, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman and others had been propounding for a generation were taking root with more people...
    ______________
    In addition to the "protective" reason for limiting and decentralizing governmental power to preserve freedom, Friedman points out a "constructive" reason as well. Like philosopher and internationally acclaimed author Ayn Rand, Friedman observed that the great advances of civilization, whether in architecture or painting; in science or literature, in industry or agriculture, have never come from centralized power. A society that robs an individual of the product of his effort, or enslaves him, or attempts to limit the freedom of his mind, or compels him to act against his own rational judgment—a society that sets up a conflict between its edicts and the requirements of man’s nature…destroys all the values of human coexistence, has no possible justification and represents, not a source of benefits but the deadliest threat to man’s survival (Rand, p.330).
    ________________
    But, apart from Milton Friedman and the Austrian school of economics, there are very few voices in the world who consistently championed capitalism as an ideal system. Ayn Rand was the first to declare that "greed is good" and make it stick.
    _______________
    The usual understanding of anarchism as a left wing ideology does not take into account the neo-liberal "anarchism" championed by the likes of Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman and America's Libertarian Party, which couples law of the jungle right-wing economics with liberal positions on most social issues.
    _____________________
    Still, capitalism has always had some defenders who weren't reticent about calling it by its given name, particularly the disciples of Ayn Rand and of libertarian economists like Ludwig von Mises, Frederick Hayek, and Milton Friedman. They tend to be people who come to the defense of capitalism with something more like religious zeal. You could hear some of that in the profession of faith that Kenneth Lay made to an interviewer a while ago: "I believe in God and I believe in free markets," he said, and went on to suggest that Jesus would have agreed with him. Needless to say, that level of enthusiasm changes the tone of the discussion. When people extol the virtues of free enterprise, they usually invoke the rising standard of living and the inventions it spawns. When they talk about the virtues of capitalism they're more likely to go on about the moral values of individualism and the freedom to fail that capitalism provides -- the lesson that both O'Neill and Lindsay were quick to read in the Enron disaster. It's a little scrap of bombast you can trace directly back to Ayn Rand's turgid philosophizing -- the notion that capitalism is never so glorious as when it's strewing the ground with bodies.
    _______________________

    Yet Rothbard distinguishes himself from most fellow Libertarians when he takes the final step toward what he considers to be the true logical conclusion of these premises: advocating the abolishment of the State entirely. While Rothbard calls this position Libertarianism (which he distinguishes from Ayn Rand's or Milton Friedman's "right-wing" Libertarianism), the name most contemporary political thinkers give Rothbard's position is "anarcho-capitalism."
    ______________

    Neo-liberalism is a very hard term and set of beliefs to elucidate because there are so many misconceptions tied up with it. The basics are: 1) it was developed by heartless ivory tower number crunchers (Milton Friedman et al.) who were followers of Ayn Rand and B.F. Skinner (whose work "Beyond Freedom and Dignity" should be a clue as to what motivated these people), 2) it was disseminated, promulgated and popularized with the help of misreadings and incomplete readings of Adam Smith, 3) It had its first stirrings of triumph under Nixon and took over with the Reagan revolution and the Bush/Clinton years, replacing the Keynesian economic theory and its emphasis on an active public sector and oversight as the dominant model of Capitalism, and 4) it somehow managed to make itself synonymous with Capitalism, even freedom itself, and later, after the fall of state Communism, proclaimed its own triumph.
     
  14. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    This is a great thread. I'm enjoying the read. Let the debate continue.

    For my money those arguing against this tax cut strategy are winning, but I could be biased.

    I also what some call inconsistancies in Refman's views I call him thinking for himself and not buying 100% into in anybody's party line.
     

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