The Passion of Christ

honestly, Christ's suffering is huge to Christians. just look at and read the reactions of Christians leaving this movie, confronted with visions of suffering through crucifixion.

the measure of a gift is through the worthiness of the receiver and the cost to the giver....this is that gift played out on screen. the passion of the Christ is repeated every Good Friday in Catholic churches through the "stations of the cross." Christians meditate on that day about the sufferings of Christ...about all he beared for us. This, plus the triumph of Easter, are really the embodiments of Christian thought.

 

I saw this last night and it is one POWERFUL movie...I'm catholic and you know you've read about it, but to me, it was like I was there, showing us that Jesus really, really suffered for us all...

I didn't find it anti-semetic, but I must say I was really PO'd and angry at the individuals who torturned Jesus as they did...

I'm so glad Mel G. did this project...Everyone is a critic, but I thought it was a great movie telling the story and letting the audience judge for themselves how to take it...It was very violent, but to me, that is what makes it a real, telling story, not just sugar coating it...

 

Well, in fairness... not all Christians.

To be honest, a focus on the stations and the torture is sort of pre-Vatican-II for Catholics, and (from what I'm seeing?) very important to certain evangelical protestant groups.

To be deeply honest, while I respect the focus, I find it a little disturbing to me personally. I hope parents will think twice before letting their kids see this movie. I haven't seen it, but Ebert says it is by far the most graphically violent movie he has *ever* seen (dwarfing Tarantino works, clockwork orange, etc? yikes). Most say that it should have received an NC-17 rating. That's not a criticism. Just a note. I've heard of youth groups attending, and that's kind of horrifying.

 

B-Bob --

I'm a freaking Presbyterian...I don't know how much more middle of the road, you can get. PCUSA is hardly a conservative voice in the church at large...that said, even our church has Good Friday services where we meditate on the death of Jesus Christ and the implications. It is, after all, the imposition of our sin on him. That's been pretty standard Christian theology for thousands of years.

Curiously...the churches I would say are the more conservative ones on the scale do not have meditation services on Good Friday...so I'm not sure your assessment is correct.

 

Sorry Max, I'm probably incorrect. I had lunch with a religious historian yesterday, and I felt all smart this morning. It's dissolving quickly though. I hope I didn't offend you at all.

I'm down with the Presbies! That was my first church as a kid.

 

I'm in the PCA which is certainly more conservative and we have a Good Friday service as well.

 

no...no offense taken, at all!!! don't sweat that.

i grew up in the episcopal church...my wife grew up southern baptist...she was not comfortable with the liturgy and the ritual of the episcopal church...and i was not comfortable with some of the theology of the southern baptist church...so the presbyterian church was a nice fit...but ultimately it was less about the denomination and much more about the church i attend, the message there and the people i met there.

 

The context thing...hasn't the context been told? I mean, it's not like this is Star Wars and you have no idea the back story as you're watching the events play out....most people have some conception, flawed or not, of who Jesus was. This is just a film...a piece of art...and the creator chose to focus on something he found extremely important, namely the last 12 hours. My understanding is that the flashbacks do help to establish some context, including a flashback where he remembers himself saying you don't repay evil with evil while he's being flogged.

Presbyterians...there is a split. PCA is more conservative. PCUSA is typically more liberal. But churches are different in different regions of the country. What would be called a liberal church in the south would be a conservative church in the Northeast. PCUSA has a large portion of its membership grappling with and supporting gay pastors, for example. PCA split off, as I understand it, because of those types of things. Presbyterianism is really the child of John Calvin. You will find all different kinds of Presbyterian churches, by the way...

I am Presbyterian because I go to a Presbyterian church that I love...but I don't feel any sense of great connection with the denomination, itself. I do feel connected with the fellow churchmembers and the pastor at the church I attend.

 

I've been a member of the Episcapol church, PCA, PCUSA and the Reformed Church of France at different points in my life. I have to agree with you that within the PCA and PCUSA denominations there is a broad range and many PCUSA churches are fairly conservative.

Rimbaud, I believe the reason Presbyterians are considered more middle of the road is that the PCUSA church is much, much larger than the PCA or the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church). This is especially the case in the North where there are only a small handful of PCA churches. And the PCUSA is generally more liberal.
I honestly don't know what the PCUSA adheres to as a denomination.

By contrast, the PCA church, is considered to be "Evangelical Reformed" and as a denomination adheres rather strictly to the Westminster Confession of Faith (in case you ever wanted to sit down and read a detailed account of their theological positions). The PCA is primarily in the South. There is a lot of movement between the two denominations and I think this accounts for why you probably meet a lot of Presbyterians that don't seem very "middle of the road."

For the record, I'm a Presbyterian because I agree with almost everthing in the Westminster Confession of Faith. It's not the Bible, of course, and if there is a discrepency between the two I'll defer to the Bible.

 

this is weird.
i really hope parents aren't forcing young kids to see this.

CHICAGO, Illinois (Reuters) -- A woman died of an apparent heart attack Wednesday while watching the climactic crucifixion scene in "The Passion of the Christ" at a morning showing in Wichita, Kansas, a television station reported.

The film was stopped and a nurse in attendance went to the woman's side, KAKE-TV in Wichita reported.

"It was the highest emotional part of the movie," a spokeswoman for the station said. A crew from the station was at the special showing, which was sponsored by the ClearChannel Radio chain.

The Wichita Eagle newspaper, on its Web site, identified the woman as Peggy Scott, 56, a sales manager for two local radio stations.

Employees at KAKE-TV said they knew the woman as Peggy Law, adding they did not think she had any pre-existing health problems.

The woman was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital, where a spokesman would only say she had been attending a movie. The county coroner's office said an autopsy would be performed.

Mel Gibson's film, which opened Wednesday, has been both criticized and praised for its violent, bloody portrayal of Christ's final hours.

 

Art that Transcends
The Passion of the Christ

BreakPoint with Charles Colson
February 27, 2004

The result has been that Christians and non-Christians alike feel drawn to the film. Internet film critic Harry Knowles, who showed the film to a group of “mainly agnostic” movie lovers, told the Washington Post that it “blew the audience away.” Knowles continued, “We’re not a Bible-thumping community. I’m as liberal as can be. And I think I understand the message [of suffering and forgiveness] better than they do”—referring to the conservatives.

Well, I’m not sure of that. But Knowles’s comments raise an important point. Here at BreakPoint, we’re always saying, Christians need to engage the popular culture to bring a Christian voice to arenas where it desperately needs to be heard. This film is a chance for people to see that, contrary to popular belief, Christian art doesn’t have to be dull or amateurish. In the past, Christians have created some of the most vibrant and inspiring art ever made, and this film follows in that tradition. It is an excellent production, bringing new meaning to the Christian belief that Jesus took our place on the cross. And in the film you realize what a horrible place it was; what a great salvation we have; and what a huge debt of love we owe.


http://www.pfm.org/BPtemplate.cfm?S...Management/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=11743

 

Max do you subsribe to the Presbyterian Outlook?

 

I skimmed through hastily, so forgive me if I missed the point. I'm assuming this statement is made about the movie. It might help to know that the movie begins with this quote:

But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. (Isaiah 53:5)

All the suffering portrayed in the movie should be viewed in light of this passage.

 

Argh, I accidently posted this in the Hangout. (stupid two threads )

Gibson and his sect are a sad group (add another reason to why I won't be seeing this movie)

Monks' performance disrupted by protesting Catholics

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1639990

(Grand Rapids, February 11, 2004, 7:01 p.m.) It was a religious confrontation that has inspired anger and confusion.

24 Hour News 8 spent Wednesday finding more about the scores of people who disrupted a Buddhist worship service Tuesday night at a Grand Rapids Catholic Church.

About 150 demonstrators from St. Margaret Mary Church in Allendale gathered inside St. Adalbert's Basilica in Grand Rapids. The police were called in when the demonstrators' loud prayers disrupted the event. The group was upset that Tibetan monks were allowed to perform inside a Catholic basilica.

One person described the incident as a civil war between churches. You have places like St. Adalbert's, and then you have St. Margaret Mary in Allendale, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church in the late 1960's. There are a lot of similarities between the churches as well as a lot of differences.

Some people call Tuesday night's incident praying, while others say it was a downright rude interruption. Either way, the sound was so loud and so distracting, the Tibetan monks didn't get to perform at the altar. "It's the idea it was being done in a Catholic basilica," said Debbie Underhill, one of the demonstrators.

A Christian Reformed church or university setting, says Underhill, wouldn't have bugged her a bit. But the fact is, the monks don't worship her God. Plus, as a member of St. Margaret Mary Catholic Church, she says her priest wouldn't be allowed to hold service at the basilica because they aren't recognized by some people as a Catholic church.

"The differences are getting bigger and bigger," Underhill told 24 Hour News 8. She says St. Margaret stands apart because it's much stricter and traditional.

"Most of it is Latin," Underhill said. "The priest faces the altar, not the people," she continued.

And the differences don't stop there.

St. Margaret Mary is affiliated with the Society of Saint Pius X, which was founded in 1970 by French Bishop Marcel Lefebvre, after splitting with the current Roman Catholic Church.

At a performance at Grand Valley State University Wednesday, the monks tell 24 Hour News 8 they've performed at churches before with no problem. "Our message was not to create disharmony, but to create harmony, so they are sorry things happened that way," said Tsering Mullens, a translator for the Tibetan monks.

Or rather, just the wrong place, wrong time, in a crossfire of differing beliefs. "Our motives were not to hurt anyone, it was in defense of the faith," said Underhill.

24 Hour News 8's reports on Tuesday night's demonstration and the follow-up Wednesday have gained a lot of attention. We received more than a dozen e-mails and numerous phone calls from people expressing their thoughts and concerns, primarily talking about the distinction between these churches.

24 Hour News 8 was able to find some information on the Society of St. Pius X, which is the group the parishioners at St. Margaret Mary's belong to. The Society's United States headquarters are in Kansas City, Missouri. There are 850 Third Order members in the U.S. with more than 100 chapels and 50 priests nationwide.

Grand Rapids Bishop Kevin Britt released a statement about allowing the monks into St. Adalbert's basilica, saying "In Pope John P II's commitment to peace and justice, the Holy Father has championed ecumenical and interreligious dialogue."

The diocese also made clear that St. Margaret Mary is not part of the Roman Catholic Church or the Diocese of Grand Rapids.

 

no

 

It has an online presence too.
http://pres-outlook.com/

Here is the mission statement...

The Presbyterian Outlook Foundation is organized and shall be operated exclusively for religious, charitable, literary and educational purposes. The specific objectives of the corporation are:
to promote free and independent discussion of issues confronting the Presbyterian Church,
to disseminate accurate information about developments in the Christian Church in general and the Presbyterian Church in particular,
to advance understanding of the Reformed faith in its historic and contemporary meaning,
to promote study of the Christian message,
to develop an informed constituency of Presbyterians who can contribute their talents to the life and mission of both the Presbyterian Church and the whole body of believers.
to promote preaching the Christian gospel, establishing churches and nurturing Presbyterian communities to insure the survival of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) as a vital Christian community.

It's a good place to go to read what is going on in the church. There are always good letters and often very good debates...

My great-grandfather, grandfather, all 3 great-uncles, and various other cousins were/are all Presbyterian ministers, and my dad now works at the seminary in Austin. I was brought up in a very liberal church, and it is always interesting to me to see the dialogs that go on when the church is struggling with new positions and challenges. Anyway, I thought you might enjoy it, judging from your posts, though I know you are drawn more to your church than the denomination.

THere are also some interesting pieces up currently about the Passion.

 

thanks for the info, HootOwl.

 

There's a Christian Theologian who speaks on KCOH 1430 here in Houston on Saturday mornings. Sorry I can't remember her name. I don't know if this has already been debated in this thread but she was saying some things that contradict a lot of things I've been taught as a Christian.

She says that Pilot was not ambivelent as the Bible teaches us but historically was known to be a brutal person who was actually recalled by Roman leadership for fear his brutality would cause a rebellion.

She also says that if the Jews were to kill Jesus for blasphemy, it probably would have been by Stoning, as it was the punishment for such crimes, and that the Romans were likely more responsible for than portrayed because Crusifxtion was there form of punishment for squashing rebillions.

She also mentioned something about Jewish leadership being less likely to kill someone during the Passover but I don't exactly remember her reasoning.

 

I finally saw this last night, not because I particularly wanted to, but there's this girl who did and...etc.

MINOR SPOILERS below, I guess...so you're warned

Simply as a movie (not speaking religiously or politically here, simiply as a piece of cinema) I thought it was mediocre at best.

Gibson's direction I thought was really lackluster. Let's face it, as a director, he is about as sophisticated as your average 17 year old. He's been remaking the Road Warrior for about 15 years now (Braveheart, the Patriot, etc etc). He relies heavily on super slo mo, blaring music, loud noises, and an absurd amount of speicial effects. At points I was waiting for Gandalf and Frodo to appear, I didn't know whether or not Jesus was climbing up Cavalry mount or Mount Doom.

Particularly annoying was this silly technique (I'm sure it has a name) where he fades the background noise out and then fades in soft flute/choral music as the characters get all introspective, then abruptly ends with a full volume thundering crash, its effective on occasion but he kept going back to it, very cheap IMO

As for the special effects, he also had this silly devil character who kept popping up( or maybe it was Grima Wormtongue, as he appeared to be accompanied by Gollum at one point).

The problem with this was the problem with everything; everything was SO over the top and exaggerated, the pharisees were absurdly evil, the Romans absurdly loutish, I mean having them go "YA HA HA HA HA" like drunken pirates for the last half of the movie was a little ridiculous, the blood and gore was excessive. Everything was excessive. I thought the point was to make a "realistic" Jesus movie. It wasn't realistic, super slo mo and speical effects and absurd caricatures are not realistic. THat's not what one would have seen if one was there.

The ending, which features triumphal music while a naked resurrected Jesus gets up and strides out of the tomb, was stolen directly from the Terminator movies when the naked Terminator robots go through the time machines to go to the past. Not really sure if that 's what Mel was going for, but thats what it was.

The performances were so/so. Jim Cavaziel has the personality of a rock. I had very little sympathy for his grunting and flaying after awhile, got very desensitizing. Mary did a decent job, and monica belluci is hot, even when she tries not to be.

overall, as a piece of cinema, I'd give it 4/10.