My logic? I just think it's ironic that you say something isn't a steal because the Magic didn't have a choice in the matter. I mean, if someone came up to you with a gun and said give me your wallet, I don't think he'd need your consent to have it. It was more of a joke then anything.
who cares!!?? They're in the Eastern Conference and they'll be a 6th seed at worst. The only way Francis will actually contribute to a team is if he has an incredible point forward, like Grant Hill(controlling the ball-or keeping the ball out of Francis' hands-whichever you prefer). IMO a match made in heaven. Hill unfortunately though won't be healthy and the Magic will get their *sses beaten in the first or second round once they play a team with some actual talent. To summarize, we can't compare what Francis did in Houston with what he'll do in Orlando. And as far as him making his teammates worse and you wanting examples, I'll give you one: Yao. If you had even close to a real point guard he'd have had the ball in better positions and probably would have had more overall shots if for no other reason than that anyone other than Francis would have turned the ball over less. And don't give me any crap about how kidd turns it over a lot too, cuz he also gives teammates the ball in incredibly easy positions to score. Ask Kmart at the Allstar break if he misses Jason Kidd. And once RJ has to play w/o Kidd he's gonna be just another good player with a bad contract.
But we aren't talking about a mugging, we're talking about a basketball trade. Steal takes on another meaning. A steal is the Nets Getting Richard Jefferson and Jason Collins for Eddie Griffin.
I know. It was more of a joke then anything. You have to admit that in any other circumstance, saying "it isn't a steal because one person didn't have a choice" would be a little silly.
Yes I do, but since I was talking about a certain circumstance where that isn't the case, my argument wasn't silly at all. Now, after reading Kelly Dwyer's preview, I think the Magic actually did have a few choices. He said the Magic could have made T-Mac sweat til February if they were patient. He also wrote that they could have just let T-Mac go and free up some cap space. I think that there were teams who were ready to roll the dice on T-Mac even if he didn't say outright that he'd resign.
Francis is good and I like the guy - but I think the reasoning a lot of people use against him builds on what you just said. Francis had no other all stars and the team won 45 games. Then they added a 7'5" all star center... what happened??? ...43 wins and no more Rudy T. so they get a new coach and try again - results ?? ...45 wins. I believe there is a pattern here that you are not seeing. He may have been responsible for the Rox winning 45 games in one season, but SF3 was also responsible for the Rox (ONLY) winning 45 games in one season (if you get the meaning) YES - you are correct - SF3 did it himself, he carried the team, he was "tha' man". But the great players don't just play well, they lift the others around them and make them great. Francis was not that kind of player (see my article on the death of the PG in another thread on this issue) Lets hope that T-mac and Yao are able to carry each other to greatness
The only reason Yao is an all-star center right now is because there is a severe lack of talent at the position. So lets not act like Yao dominated the league his first couple of seasons. Every team that finished in front of the Rockets had a quality big man and the only one whom Yao’s numbers were comparable to were Gasols. But Nowitzki was a better player than Yao, Duncan, Shaq, Brad Miller/Webber, and Garnett. Yao will probably continue his improvement but Francis wasn’t working with Wilt Chamberlain the last couple of seasons.
Sigh....Yao was a 17.5/9 player. Is that Wilt? No? Is that a "scrub?" No. No one said anything about Wilt Chamberlain. But if that's what it takes for Francis team to become successful, then maybe Francis isn't as good as you think he his. Because he wouldn't be the leader of the team with a MAX CONTRACT if we had Wilt...you can be sure of that! Hmmm, maybe we need Shaq next, right? I'm sure that you will be saying THIS year, after Yao has a career year...."IF Yao played like this, last year when Francis was w/him, then we have a better year...." completely overlooking that Francis himself was the root cause of many of the bad entry passes, and fast-break passes, and internal passing all that would have resulted in better scoring, FG% and teamplay if SF hadn't been so turnover prone. Understand? I mean, heck. We could have had Elton Brand (20/10), and you would have said, "He's not Wilt!" This is what it means when we say, "make players around him better." Top PG are supposed to do that. Not just make themselves better (carrying the team to 42-45 wins or not). I don't even know what to say about that comment....guess you can just rule out an Olympic spot, right? Or maybe All-NBA Third Team. Nah. Yao's not talented. It's just that there's no one "better!"
.... besides pointing out that you are insane to say that Yao didn't dominate the league - I would also like to refer you to my post where I said that SF3 was not helping his teammates. There were games last season when Yao (a 52% field goal shooter) got 8 shots ... let that sink in for a minute 8 shots... 8 shots... Francis, a 43% shooter had 2 games where he took LESS than 9 shots Yao still averaged 17 points per game, 9 rebounds and almost 2 blocks per game. In the new - defense first NBA - those numbers are very respectble. BTW - I hate to have this turn into a SF3 hating session - I really like the guy and I hope that Orlando trades him so he doesn't have to stay with that poorly managed francise.
Wow, I don't know what's more amazing. That it took some people THIS LONG to realize how much of a one-sided trade the T-Mac deal was. Or that some still think this trade wasn't all that lopsided. I mean, for christ sakes. We traded Francis, Mobley, and Cato for a top five player in the game. How in the world is that not a steal? If you don't think so, imagine a team trying to get T-Mac from us for players the caliber of Francis, Mobley, and Cato. What would your reaction be? It probably ranges from "Are you on crack?" to "Hell No!" Carroll Dawson would be crucified if he ever tries to trade T-Mac for the package we gave up.
You guys cannot argue that a) Yao is dominant right now and would have been an all-star center ten years ago. And you cannot argue that he was significantly better than any of the big man on the teams that finished ahead of the Rockets. If you could, you would have. There were games that Yao got 41 points, I guess Steve was holding him back then with the weak entry passes. There were games when Yao got 8 shots. And there were games when he had to be pulled out all together for ineffectiveness. All and all he was a good player, not dominate and to assert so is absolutely ridiculous.
I hate to say it but I think this trade is similar to the pippen/cato,walt trade in 99'. Pippen wanted out after his argument with Barkley and Cato/Walt and scrubs was the best we could do.
You guys? I didn't say that Yao was dominant. So, don't put words in my mouth. How many games are there in the season? 82 right? Heh... But you need to sit back and watch how many 40+ games Yao has this year. And it wont just have to do with Yao's maturity and strength training alone. It will also have a lot to do with how clean the entry passes are from TMac, Ward and Lue (and other players moving w/out the ball waiting for passes). This is will be evident when the offense just seem to flow better and our FG% (team wise) start to increase. Oh, boy...here we go....era comparison. How about this? What have you done for me lately, Francis? The point is: What can Francis can do with the talent around him TODAY! If the opposition is "worse today than ten years ago" then it should be easier for Francis to utilize Yao, right? Unless you are saying that not only is the center competition worse today, but you also need Yao to be like Wilt. Give me a break.
The emotional investment that some posters have in Steve Francis is utterly amazing. I have never seen anything like this. I have seen this kind of devotion to Hall of Famers, but Steve Francis???!!!! I wouldn't even expect family members to be as committed as some posters on this board. Francis should do something special for you guys. I wish my friends were as devoted to me. It is almost a form of religious worship.
I think is has to do with some posters never seeing anything different in a PG. They don't know what they are missing. Thus, it's the only measure of a PG they have is Francis. So, they refuse to believe there's something better. This is common in the ESPN highlight fan base. Infatuation with the "mad hopps." Easily distracted by shiny objects. I just can't wait for the season to start. Because the memory of our team still has a tinge of fumbling and bumbing with it. We need to erase that memory. And fast!
let me throw the SF3 worshippers a bone 45 wins 43 wins 45 wins ... at least we were a consistant, slightly-above-mediocre team
