That is some absolutely nonsense logic, you do realise that, right? Go look at how many teams DID win rings with pure pg's as their starter, then try and make this argument again...
Skill wise yes, mentally uncertain. I hope he will have a great off season. He should work on defense and show a little more patience under the guidance of coach Lucas.
What’s nonsense logic is arguing, “You have to have a true PG because some teams have won with a true PG in the past!”
Nope, that's not how it works. Historically, teams with pure PG's have won loads more rings than teams that haven't. It's not even remotely close, like, at all. And you think you're right somehow because of 3 players? Seems legit....
What? That is just not true at all.......many of the best PURE PGs have failed to win a ring. 1. CP3 2. Nash 3. Stockton As examples.... Tons of championships are won without a PURE PG - every Lebron team had him as the point forward, the old Celtics had 2 SGs, Magic wasn't a pure PG, the Rockets didn't have a pure PG when they won..... Pure PGs are not necessary to win anything. DD
In what universe is Magic not a pure point guard? Ridiculous. And you're kinda missing the entire point of the back and forth, I was simply saying that it's completely illogical to say "Paul, Nash and Stockton never won a ring so pure point guards aren't even that good" when you compare to the literally decades of winners with pure point guards winning rings. Tbh though, after the "MTagic is not a pure point guard" nonsense, I'm surprised I even responded to this. The guy literally averaged 11 assists for his career and holds a lot of the assists records. You went a bit off the reservation with that one, just because a man is tall, doesn't negate the way he actually played.
Correct DD....and since BoDrizzle has me on ignore i'll post this here. The game has changed since 14/15 when the Warriors proved that a jump shooting team can win it all. Since then I would say only Lowry might be considered a "True" point guard, and that's debatable. 14/15: Warriors 15/16: Cavs *(LeBron) 16/17: Warriors 17/18: Warriors 18/19: Raptors (Lowry)? 19/20: Lakers (LeBron ?Rondo?) 20/21: Bucks Jrue Holiday? 21/22: Memphis Ja Morant (just kidding but my pick) So is Steph Curry a "True Point Guard"? averages 6.5 assists per game over his career Lowry? I believe the league has changed and looking at historical numbers beyond 14/15 is useless in this discussion unless we change the current rules. **Interesting side note: Kyrie Irving said publicly that Harden was the point guard of the Nets after a few games with Harden. True Point Guards don't defer their role.
I think "true PG" is a bit of a misnomer... Pass first PG's who don't look to score much don't really exist... The best PG's in the league since forever have usually been able to score and get their own shots. Trying to label these guys 1-5 PG, SG,ect...That's over with... IMO, The real question is: "Can KPJ be the primary ball handler or can Green and KPJ split primary initiator duties" If we look at the Warriors...They had Steph and Draymond...On the bench for the first one they had Livingston and Barbosa as well... Cavs had Lebron and Kyrie Warriors Steph and Draymond and Livingston Ditto Raptors Lowry, KL also Van Fleet Lakers...Lebron and Rondo Bucks Drue and Giannis These guys are usually the ones initiating the offense in the half court....It's not always the guy labeled the PG... I don't care what KPJ is called tbh....But if they are going to put the ball in his hands to start 50% or more of our possessions then he's got to be elite at it if we want to win a ring. Not really concerned about assists numbers as much if he is splitting the duty with Green... This season for as much as he had the ball he should've been around 8.5 per game, or he needed to score the ball better... Look at the guys who you would consider the top primary ball handlers/initiators for the top teams...And then look at their PER Some people feel like KPJ played pretty well all year and showed he could be the primary ball handler...And then we know that Jalen struggled mightily for much of the season...Some even calling him the worst player in basketball for a stretch Well KPJ's Per was only 1 point higher than the guy who some called the worst player in the NBA for a stretch... This is the company that KPJ was in last year: 140 Chimezie MetuSAC 139 Terance MannLAC 138 Will BartonDEN 137 Pat ConnaughtonMIL 136 Jordan McLaughlinMIN 135 Nicolas BatumLAC 134 Cole AnthonyORL 133 Kevin Porter Jr.HOU 132 P.J. WashingtonCHA 131 Marcus SmartBOS 130 Seth CurryBKN/PHI 129 Alec BurksNY 128 RJ BarrettNY 127 Delon WrightATL 126 Cameron PaynePHX 125 Eric PaschallUTAH I don't want any of those guys being my primary ball handler. I would say if he's going to be a championship caliber lead ball handler he needs to AT LEAST be up here with these guys: 33 LaMelo BallCHA 32 Jrue HolidayMIL 31 Zach LaVineCHI 30 Pascal SiakamTOR 29 Mitchell RobinsonNY 28 Jakob PoeltlSA 27 Chris PaulPHX 26 James HardenBKN/PHI 25 Andre DrummondBKN/PHI 24 Jonas ValanciunasNO 23 Devin BookerPHX 22 Clint CapelaATL 21 Stephen CurryGS 20 Donovan MitchellUTAH 19 Daniel GaffordWSH 18 Jayson TatumBOS
PER is not a great metric to predict productivity. It is one of the very first of the advanced stats and also one of the most flawed. Because productivity is never defined by Hollinger. Instead productivity is based on our personal definitions instead of a stated definition by the scientist conducting the research. https://towardsdatascience.com/problems-with-per-in-the-nba-fa0e611543e2
It's actually the opposite. Per is what it is, which is simply a summary of statistical accomplishments. As long as you understand that, its a good stat. https://towardsdatascience.com/problems-with-per-in-the-nba-fa0e611543e2 Like I said, I don't see anyone who has a per as low as kpj having the ball 50% or more of the time being a recipe for a championship. I don't see anyone with a per that low being a player who id want setting up my offense a majority of the time.
per?...PER?....we talking PER here? To steal a line from Allen Iverson I'm thinking more in line with Ast%. Steve Nash got as high as 53.1 Ast%, Stockton 58.7% Ast%, Magic Johnson 49.3% Ast%. They were eat a little so they could feed their brothers more. Now it's feed your fellow brother......by committee. And it's more than that, like layers of an onion. One has to consider defense. It's like pure quarterback like Joe Montana or Tom Brady, but asking them to play defense as well. Yes point guards of the past would defend point guards of the past by fighting through screens or going over/under them.....now it's switch everything. The switch everything defensively was starting around 14/15......the Warriors were the first team I saw use it consistently durinv the season. I was laughing at them, experts were criticizing them, my thought process was don't show your playoff hand too early.....wait until the playoffs. Well it's a copy cat league and from that now teams are bringing in the personnel to run a switch everything defense. It's now tougher for the pure point guards to get all the way to the rim. Add the fact that teams are turning switch everything defense to zone mixed in, and you see or will see teams move on from the smaller player that mainly guards point guard, now to taller guards that can do a better job guarding 1-4. CP3 could hold, cling, grab, pinch, bite, Centers on a switch, but when he joined the Rockets, the league conveniently took that away. Now that he is not a Rocket they allow him to get away with it more. But, let's not get off topic.....the league will be going more with players 6'4 to 6'9" players that can guard everything in between. The 7 footers like Mark Williams will have a place since they can both protect the rim and pop out to contest 3-point attempts. Go man-to-man, switch everything, jump into a zone, and toggle between the 3 at a moments notice to confuse the defense. So in summary, the book ends of small-ish players will be taken out, unless they can shoot like Steph Curry of Trae Young, and the Big Centers will be taken out for more mobile versatile individuals who can contribute offensively and defensively in the entire half court. Keeping up the PACE by running the full court....faster. So the book ends removed and the books hold themselves up. _______________________ I'm looking at Ast% mostly in the 30's as a norm (reg season). Here are some from this year per basketball-reference.com DeJounte Murray 38.8% (Ast%) LaMelo 34.1% (Adt%) Haliburton 33.5% (Ast%) Morant 33.0% Giddy 32.5% Lowry 32.1% Lillard 32.1% DeAngelo Russell 32.0% Westbrook 31.3% Beal 30.9% (I see Beal as what the league would like to turn to running point) Curry 28.6% Jrue Holiday 28.6% Porter jr 30.2% Summary: defenses are dictating the role of the point of attack and moving it from a smaller frame that could get all the way to the rack by want of PnR; To a need for a bigger frame player who will absorb contact that can get better releases or shots at the rim over or in zone defenses........while being able to defend 1-4 consistently and not be so much of a liability. Too many 3-point shooters nowadays calls for defenders to cover way too much ground. In the past you had maybe two good 3-point shooters on the court at one time.....now all 5 offensive players are being asked to shoot 3's.....a point guard needs to defend the rim and be big enough to contest a 6'10" 3-pt shooter. They. better score like Curry or Trae if they can't. *Side Note: Iverson greatest Ast% was 37.6% and was often listed as SG. Curry greatest was 39.9% (Ast%).....one season hit in the 40's but only played 5 games that season. So Porter is right there in striking distance....just fine tune it a little & add a Jabari-Chet-Banchero-Ivey-Keegan.....get out of "Tank" mode. Everything gonna be all right.
Disagree and many NBA data analysts feel same. PER claims to be a holistic measure of a player’s performance, meaning that it takes into account the offensive and defensive performance of the player. However, as we all know it’s more of an offensive statistic because it only takes into account steals, blocks and defensive rebounds. Further, there is no adjustment for the quality of teammates and opponents. Players on good teams will naturally record much better stats. Naturally, this will lead to them being rated as much more efficient. Similarly, playing against quality opponents will lead to worse stats. While the strength of opponents problem should generally even out over the course of the season, both these factors are worth considering and controlling for.
Don't get caught up in nomenclature. CP3 can drop 45 on you too... So could Nash, so could Magic. Putting them in a box because they were great leaders that made their teammates better is douchey.
The "true pg" discussion misses the point. The question is not whether KPJ has to conform to the traditional pg model, but whether he can get other players involved in the offense effectively, find open men, and make quality passes. What we've seen is that he's the most effective when his shot is going in and he's playing score-first, that's a fact. Which isn't a problem, as other pg-types (say, a Luka) do the same thing. The difference, however, is that KPJ offensively is far less consistent (too many nights where he's missing near layups along with everything else), struggles with a lot of the basic passes any ball-dominant player needs to be able to make (entry passes into the post, slip passes on a screen and roll, alley oops, etc.), and generally doesn't do a great job "finding" guys when they're open. Now, when he's really on, he'll make an occasional great pass, and I mean highlight level pass, but Sengun as a facilitator does a better job of it than KPJ, which is why everyone is saying that KPJ's shortcomings as a PG aren't a problem because Sengun will just supplement that. I'm not so convinced, just because the modern NBA is so PnR heavy, and when your lead PnR guy can't hit people on the roll consistently or make the right read, you're going to stall on offense a lot, which is what we do, and KPJ has been a big part of that. The other challenge with KPJ is a defensive one, in that 1) he doesn't always seem interested in playing it, and 2) he doesn't match up well against small PGs who crushed us last year when he was on them (like Campazzo, etc.). At this point we're far too invested in the "KPJ as PG" experiment to abandon it, and short of drafting Ivey because he's the best-available, I don't see that changing this season unless we see no improvement from last season at the end of the season. That said, I think many fans are overcompensating in their KPJ support, maybe because he had a seemingly good stretch to end the season, or maybe because he feels like a underdog or something, who knows. But objectively speaking, the jury is still out on whether he should play PG or whether he's a better fit at SF, or even as a sixth man.
