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The Obama Adminstration's Handling of Wall Street.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Northside Storm, May 24, 2011.

  1. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    We know EXACTLY where the investigation is.

    if you want specific evidence, I have it here.

    There's more. We can count up the dirty money together. Right now the count stands at about say $1.2 billion to 3.2 billion...and that's only ONE case. Certainly makes $600 million dollars seem like a joke right?

    Yes, because the fact that all the evidence was unleashed by an independent senatorial commission, and not the f****g SEC whose job it is to follow up on these kind of things, and also the fact that despite the SEC's duties to report these kind of things to the DOJ, there have been ZERO jailings other than Madoff even though there has been tons of evidence of criminal wrongdoing certainly does not validate the opinion of a few officials who say the SEC might as well be non-existent. This doesn't even call into question the "revolving door" the SEC has become either.

    just read the following article if you want more insight.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216

    THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE

    oh yeah, let's just ignore the fact the bank systematically propped up murdering ravenous assholes that control the country to the south of us and have murdered 30000 or so civilians. A 50 million dollar fine is historic! No jail-time or anything, just about how much a big investment bank earns in a day.

    What a joke. If the DOJ fails to follow up on the perjury and fraud charges against Goldman, it will be the last straw. As it stands, the Obama Administration has totally failed in keeping Wall Street in check---even though this was probably the best moment in time to do so. They gave us a watered down Glass-Stegall, and aren't even enforcing it properly. TARP's "government goals" have utterly failed and banks that should have been taught a lesson have simply weazled their way out and added more and more risk to their profile with Goldman leading the charge. All the banks learned from 2008 is that the government will always be there for them, so don't expect any changes. We are leaping down the same path that led us to this disaster in the first place.
     
  2. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    I read a pretty good article about The Clash in Rolling Stone recently.

    Did you know Bob Dylan is turning 70?
     
  3. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    yeah, we had a Bob Dylan tribute up here in the cold cold north. didn't go, but at least I know.

    I actually only really check out Rolling Stone for the Matt Taibbi Anti-Wall Street Crusade/very biased left-wing reports. sometimes I come across the occasional culture piece I like though.

    Kevin Smith interview was lolz though.

     
  4. Major

    Major Member

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    Really? Tell me - what do you know about the federal investigation? Who's being investigated? What evidence has been collected? What charges are being looked at, and how close are they to going public?

    You seem to have a lot of information not available to the rest of us, so please share.

    Unfortunately, a Rolling Stone article is unlikely to be accepted as factual evidence in a court case.

    Good thing the $600MM fine was not for that dirty money then, eh?

    Or maybe since the Senate Commission does it's work in public, while the SEC doesn't talk about it's investigation, you just have heard about what one is doing and not what the other is? Could that be remotely possible, or do you have inside sources into the SEC?

    Why? Can you point to the specific crimes committed by specific people with specific evidence? Or is your entire argument that Rolling Stone laid out a larger case and that should be enough to convinct people of some law you don't know or understand based on specific evidence that you don't have?

    It would be interesting to put a bank in jail. I don't think we have any jail cells that could really fit even an average-sized Wachovia branch, let alone one of their bigger ones.

    You seem to have already decided the last straw a long time ago.

    I think government goals and your own personal goals are two very different things. TARP's goal was to stabilize the financial system and prevent a complete meltdown. That's it. Your desire for revenge and everyone's goals of reform were not part of TARP - it was emergency legislation to fix a specific problem. Which it did - at ZERO cost to taxpayers, and a high price to the financial institutions that got saved.
     
  5. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    Well, your entire argument seems to be based on "y u use rolling stone article???" and "how u put bank in jail?"

    To the second I answer simply: by putting the executives in jail.

    And, well, to the first, the good thing is the Rolling Stone article is based on well, an actual report.

    The bad thing is well, that actual report is very boring, cumbersome and long, but you asked for it, so here goes---

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/14/goldman-sachs-full-senate-report

    Wall Street and The Financial Crisis:Anatomy of a Financial Collapse
    April 13, 2011

     
  6. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    really?

     
  7. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    ^^^A one line statement that identifies everything wrong with the typical Major point of view.
     
  8. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    I don't know if what Goldman did is illegal. invest at your own risk, the investments aren't ponzi schemes like madoff. they are real products.
     
  9. wakkoman

    wakkoman Contributing Member

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    Generally I agree with the notion of investing "at your own risk" but what Goldman did by unloading CDO's they knew were complete **** onto investors while simultaneously holding a large amount of insurance against the default of those loans without disclosing that to the same investors, is pretty terrible.
     
  10. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    mhmm.
     
  11. Qball

    Qball Contributing Member

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    You're assuming that everyone's personal goals are the same?
     
  12. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    Yes and no.

    1) Personal goals have a lot of variability of course, and from that perspective Major's argument is understandable. On the other hand, certain goals are virtually universal. In this case, one could very easily argue that all people would like justice to prevail, and that inasmuch as the government represents the people (not at all, honestly - more on that later) the government is beholden to act accordingly. If we can agree that all people want (deserve) fair treatment and protection from the government, the executives at GS, and the Company itself deserve not merely prosecution, but punishment and punitive damages, preferably (in my opinion) including the complete break up of the company. More to the point, if the people are going to bailout companies that take absurd risks and act illegally to the point of threatening the entire economy, they deserve absolute authority over said companies' operations ex post facto.

    2) In most every argument of this type, Major has a penchant for defending the interests of the system, usually under the guise of stability. It's shameless pandering to the powers-that-be, the elites and mega-conglomerates with totalitarian influence in Washington. I don't want system stability, I want a better system! Fundamentally, this is my problem with most of Major's political commentary - he's a conformist without a cause.
     
    #12 rhadamanthus, May 25, 2011
    Last edited: May 25, 2011
  13. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    Goldman doesn't sell these things to Grannie down the road, but to institutions that should be able to make their own decisions about the validity of an investment.

    Yeah....a Goldman Investment Banker is selling something thats so great and he's all in it! Anyone that believes that should not be in a postion of power in an institutional investor group.

    If they were running clients money in discretionary models and used them as a toilet to flush their bad mortgages, we'd have a story.
     
  14. Major

    Major Member

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    A typical response with no actual substance from you. The simple fact is that you can't deem a bill a failure just because it didn't do what you want. It did exactly what it was meant to do, despite the cries and whines of people who claimed it wouldn't.
     
  15. Major

    Major Member

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    But was it illegal? Goldman has a lot of very smart lawyers who know how to navigate complex laws. We all agree it was unethical - but you can't jail people for unethical. You have to prove things were, beyond any reasonable doubt, illegal based on the set of laws actually in place.
     
  16. Major

    Major Member

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    I think we all also agree that we are a nation of laws, and that we don't put people in jail because of a feeling or an anger towards them. I haven't defended Goldman Sachs anywhere in here - all I've done is defend the idea that an investigation actually has to be done before we conclude anything. One of 4 things may be true right now:

    1. The Justice Dept / SEC didn't care and are protecting GS.
    2. They have some evidence, but not enough to prosecute
    3. GS did unethical things, but nothing apparently illegal.
    4. There is a case being built.

    As of right, we have no idea which of the above is true.

    I'm all for changes in the system - in fact, I've advocated for very serious ones. I'm not for hyper-emotional attacks on companies based simply on a desire for revenge, especially at the expense of everyone else (which is exactly what the anti-TARP people were arguing for: revenge, even if it destroys the entire economy).
     
  17. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    You most certainly can! I think you are failing to understand the difference between

    a) A bill that worked "as intended"
    and
    b) A bill that's "intentions" were misguided and insufficient.
     
  18. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

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    Funny how such a sentiment never seems to apply to the radicals and protesters working for change...tangential, I know, but poignant nonetheless.

    As to the topic, laws that provide one set of rules for the people, and another for faceless corporations are hardly worthy of my respect. Regardless of that, laws ceased to be necessary when TARP bailed out the banks. TARP should have stipulated all sorts of regulatory and trust-busting as provisions from the beginning, rendering any such arguments about illegality moot. I've been arguing this from day one. And I was right - now we see that despite Major's prognostications to the contrary, jack **** is being done to regulate and prosecute in the aftermath. Furthermore, if the laws are not providing protections and justice, one is perfectly justified to be angry.

    Investigations have been done, reports are surfacing, and intelligent people are starting to understand the mechanisms that preceded this fiasco. Reactions are accordingly, appropriate.

    Let's see...red herrings, fear mongering, and ad hominems. Good job.
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    Bradley Manning and Thomas Drake come to mind. We're a nation of laws---these laws just happen to be applied differently to different people.

    btw, if you want to see what the Obama Administration can do when it is motivated, you just need to see the DOJ's moves on whistle-blowers like the above. The same ones that Obama promised to protect are now getting faced with absurd prison sentences based on antiquated and not often-referenced laws. work like this makes me think the Admin. is not truly pursuing financial criminals.
     
  20. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    you need to read the article, friend.

    That fraud isn't the biggest part of the story---it's the fact that Goldman was so uncomfortable with it that top executives lied to Congress. That is perjury, cut and dry as it comes.
     

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