1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

The nba buyouts are ruining the game, gaming the hard cap

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by what, Mar 10, 2021.

  1. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    61,460
    Likes Received:
    52,783
    they are not Hard Capped. See my list a few posts ago. PHI and BKN aren't

    Laker's can get him, because he doesn't take them over the hard cap. I was merely saying there are cases where might be too tight. Be a stupid GM who put you in that place, though

    also, not to mention if you still have your BAE, you can outbid others....like jsmoove...whereby either they don't have it anymore, or they are too close to the line to use full amount
     
    #41 heypartner, Mar 11, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  2. what

    what Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    14,484
    Likes Received:
    2,461
    I believe you can sign any amount of vet minimum contracts without having the space to do so.
     
  3. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    61,460
    Likes Received:
    52,783
    Nets aren’t hardcapped. But the hardcap can prevent using exceptions.

    Hardcap is a hard line. You can’t go over that line for any reason, once you’ve hardcapped yourself.

    Example: we had to cut Green, because Clemons injury guaranteed his contract, so we couldn’t fit Green’s vet min under the hard line, anymore. And we also couldn't use a Medical exception. We were hardcapped due to Wood’s SnT.
     
    #43 heypartner, Mar 12, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  4. HI Mana

    HI Mana Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,248
    Likes Received:
    686
    In general, I don't feel like this rule would make or break teams spending; cheap teams gonna cheap, bad teams gonna spend unwisely.

    I just feel like this a very minor problem that introduces one more incentive for teams to avoid hard-capping themselves. I want free agent players to be able to choose between multiple contenders all offering their full-non taxpayer MLE, not building in incentives to constrain their use. I generally think it's a great use of strategic resources for the Rockets to consistently save slivers of their MLE to sign promising UDFA/D-League guys to multi-year deals late in the season, but it unquestionably takes them out of the market for using the full MLE in most years. Even teams going for it all might necessarily need to be less aggressive in signing players to the maximum that they are able, because they don't have the ability to add buy-out guys to fill holes.

    One last thing that really doesn't get discussed much is that players that get bought out are taking a pretty massive financial hit to their future earnings as well. Guys that accept a buyout are rarely able to sign a new deal that pays them anything close to what they were making before; I think that only Boris Diaw and Joe Johnson were able to secure significant, multi-year deals in free agency after doing a buyout (and Joe Johnson got bought out AGAIN in the last year of that deal, respect the hustle!). So it's not like you're getting these guys at some massive discount; they are minimum salary players in the year of their buyout, and will be available at the minimum salary in free agency later. And if that's the case where they are not really moving the needle, I think that putting in a new rule is unecessary.
     
    B-Bob likes this.
  5. what

    what Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    14,484
    Likes Received:
    2,461
  6. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    54,016
    Likes Received:
    32,533
    As the OP said, "What?"
     
    Easy likes this.
  7. HorryForThree

    HorryForThree Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    2,946
    Likes Received:
    3,875
    What makes it worse is that, over the years, we are seeing more and more by way of talented players that would be extremely coveted in a FA market come available as buyouts. When we were making runs deep in the playoffs, the big name that came on the market was an over-the-hill Joe Johnson. There were a few other mid-tier players that got bought out, but now you're seeing veritable all-stars becoming available and stacking the odds in favor of teams already loaded and odds-on favorites to make the finals.

    This chicanery is awful for the sport, and awful for any sense of competitive fairness.

    I also think that it's time to consider doing away with the lottery. The lottery was instituted to disincentivize tanking. But all that the lottery has done has expanded the pool of tankers hoping to up their lottery odds. It provides just enough motivation needed to keep up winning within the bottom-4, but not enough to actually get to be the 5th-worst team or 6th-worst. Even though the odds are small, frankly, the 10th-14th teams shouldn't have a shot at getting the top picks. Them getting it doesn't help the league, and usually teams at the bottom 5 are really bad. These are teams that aren't faking anything, and with the lottery could be stuck there for a decade or more, which is more than enough time to take the most supportive and loyal fan base and kill a franchises market (the Knicks would be in dire straights in almost any other market given their last 10 years). I would love to see the lottery system revised closer to what it was, but limited perhaps to the bottom 7, with higher odds given to the bottom-4 (all of the bottom 7 would stay in the top-7, in this theory).

    Having said all that, I have to say I got more than a little joy seeing LMA and Drummond decide not to sign with Miami and Boston. These are GMs that have been notoriously stingy with their assets and were expecting to boost their teams via buyout. They got what they deserved imo.
     
    Easy likes this.
  8. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    98,082
    Likes Received:
    127,229
    https://www.si.com/nba/2021/03/29/nba-buyouts-andre-drummond-blake-griffin

    [...]

    “It’s a definite concern,” says another team executive working in a small market. “Without a doubt, players that are entering the buyout market will only be looking at contending teams. And most of the time, historically, their preference has been to go to the teams in the bigger markets. ... And it gives teams an opportunity to sit back and add players on minimum deals that they normally wouldn’t be able to acquire.”

    It’s debatable whether Drummond was ever worth his lofty salary (which he earns thanks to the five-year, $127 million deal he signed with the Pistons in 2016). He’s made the All-Star team only twice in nine years, and some experts question whether rebounding is still a valuable commodity in today’s NBA.

    Nevertheless, the Lakers just got a player recently valued at close to $30 million for relative pennies, despite being far over the cap and without having to trade a single player or draft pick. “The system is flawed,” says a third small-market GM. “You shouldn’t be adding to your team this deep in a season without giving things up.”

    This isn’t merely the gripe of small-market teams, or even a matter of opinion; the Buyout Market directly (and objectively) undermines the NBA’s complex system of salary caps and luxury taxes. The whole point of all these rules is to limit how much elite talent a team can collect—and to force teams to make trade-offs and hard choices.

    But the Buyout Market makes a mockery of it all. There is no sacrifice, at least for the glamor teams and the contenders. The Lakers, with LeBron James and Anthony Davis as high-priced franchise stars, would never be able to afford a $29 million rebounding specialist in a normal market (and will probably lose him to free agency this summer).

    Aldridge (35) and Griffin (32) are both past their primes, but they are still solid players, and an incredible luxury for a Nets team already stocked with elite scorers. Aldridge’s contract with the Spurs paid $24 million this season (minus a reported $7.25 million buyout). Griffin’s contract was worth $36.8 million this season, and another $38.9 million next season (minus a reported $13.3 million buyout). The Nets just got them both for $2.1 million combined.

    “This is creating a competitive advantage for the large, destination markets,” says the first team exec. “And it’s another inequity for the small markets.”

    Other contenders had to work a little harder to strengthen their rosters last week. The Nuggets traded players and draft picks to get Aaron Gordon. The Clippers had to give up Lou Williams, the three-time Sixth Man of the Year, to get Rajon Rondo. The Bucks traded players and picks to get P.J. Tucker. The Sixers traded players and picks to get George Hill. The Heat traded players and draft considerations to get Victor Oladipo.

    But the Lakers effectively got Drummond for free, just as the Nets did with Griffin and Aldridge. And though all three could conceivably go elsewhere this summer, the Lakers and Nets now get several months to recruit them first.

    And that also hurts their former teams, executives say. Rival teams pursuing those players never considered trading for them, because their large contracts made a trade unlikely. Everyone knew which players would be bought out, long before the trade deadline. So they just waited.

    The Buyout Market is effectively a second free agency period, except it comes in the middle of the season, involves only a handful of franchises and doesn’t require cap room. And it was never intended to exist. There is no mention of a “buyout market” or a “midseason free agency period” in the NBA’s collective bargaining agreement. It has evolved on its own, over several years—driven primarily by star players and influential agents.

    When a player grows discontented, he pushes for a trade. When no trade materializes, he pushes to get released or bought out. Teams feel pressure to agree, out of fear of alienating agents or being perceived as indifferent to a player’s wishes. Those things can haunt a team, especially a small-market one, when free agency rolls around.

    “It’s very, very hard for the small markets or mid markets to say we’re not gonna buy you out,” said one small-market GM, “because you can’t get players there anyway. If you don’t do them favors, an agent will say, ‘I’m not gonna bring my guys to you.’”

    But midseason buyouts used to be much rarer. The phrase buyout market was rarely used around the NBA until about 2016, according to a Nexis search, but it spiked two years later and has become a permanent part of the lexicon.

    Some team executives have pushed for reform, to no avail. One suggestion is to make buyout players ineligible for the playoffs unless they have been released at some date before the trade deadline—say, in early February—thus incentivizing teams to trade for the players. Another option would be to create a compensation system, in which the team signing the player has to send a draft pick (or possibly multiple picks, depending on the player) to the player’s former team. A third proposal would be to give each team a cap exception specifically for buyout signings—and limit it to one per season, or even one every two years. A fourth option would be to have teams place a blind bid for bought-out players, using whatever cap room or cap exceptions they have available, with the player awarded to the highest bidder.

    The small-market execs hope the issue gets addressed in the next CBA, which would begin in 2024, after the current deal expires. But they are not particularly optimistic. As they see it, NBA officials are driven by marketing and money, and having marquee names congregate in glamor markets, or on title contenders, is good for ratings.

    “The way you know the NBA doesn’t think it’s a problem is they’re reticent to acknowledge it’s been a problem,” says one of the small-market execs. “The inaction tells you, ‘We’re cool with it.’ ”
     
    Milos and Easy like this.
  9. HI Mana

    HI Mana Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,248
    Likes Received:
    686
    Over the 30 years since the NBA changed to a weighted lottery in 1990, only 6 times has a team outside the top 6 managed to win. In every single case, I believe that the league was far better off in having a non-horrible team beat the odds and win.

    1993: Orlando wins with a 1.52% chance, drafts Chris Webber and trades him to Golden State for Penny Hardaway.
    Literally created/saved basketball in a small market. Generated a team that made the finals and beat Michael Jordan's Bulls.

    2000: New Jersey wins with a 4.4% chance, drafts Kenyon Martin, who starts on two straight NBA finals teams.

    2008: Chicago wins with a 1.7% chance, drafts Derrick Rose to play in his hometown. Becomes the youngest MVP of all time, and the Bulls peak at back to back 62 win pace seasons after a decade of losing before Rose tears his ACL.

    2011: Cleveland wins the lottery with the Clippers' pick with a 2.8% chance and drafts Kyrie Irving. After enduring the highest profile free agency loss in league history, Kyrie is the lone bright spot for Cleveland fans over the next three years.

    2014: Cleveland defies the odds again with a 1.7% chance and drafts Andrew Wiggins, who becomes instrumental in securing LeBron's return to Cleveland via a trade to the Timberwolves for Kevin Love; the Cavs make 4 consecutive NBA finals following this win.

    2019: New Orleans, fresh off of being forced to trade their superstar to Los Angeles for the second time in a decade, wins with a 6% chance and drafts Zion Williamson, currently an All-Star and the face of the franchise.

    A second point is that any time you create an arbitrary cutoff where a team has a huge potential payoff with massive downside, you greatly accelerate tanking behavior. The Houston Rockets in 2016 could have protected their first rounder by losing one more game, and instead shipped off the #16 pick to lose in 5 games to the Warriors. Conversely, the Miami Heat in 2015, who had a top-10 protected pick, missed the playoffs by one game and picked Justice Winslow at #10, capped off by the last day of the season where they played 6 players in total and still won by accident since they were facing the Sixers, who played 7 players and were trying to "catch" the Knicks for the second worst record in the league. The Warriors lost 22 of 28 (amateurs) to close the 2012 season, in order to ensure that they kept their top-7 protected pick and draft Harrison Barnes. This was capped off by a game where a last second layup was intentionally goal-tended to secure a loss. Finally, my favorite tank of all time, the infamous American Sniper game in 2006, where Mark Madsen came off the bench to hoist up 7 three pointers in less than 10 minutes to move them up 4 spots from #9 to #6 (this was also the year where Kevin McHale cost the Rockets Brandon Roy by leaking information like a sieve).

    I like the flatter lottery, because at the end of the day, I don't really want perfectly fair outcomes. I'm a fan, and I want to believe in someday the stars aligning and everything breaking right for MY team. I'm ok with unfairness if it means that the team I root for gets their turn at wearing the crown, poaching players, and being more than a little insufferable. The Rockets time will come eventually again, even if it means being the butt of jokes for awhile.
     
  10. nigma2000

    nigma2000 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2002
    Messages:
    620
    Likes Received:
    441

    What ruined the NBA in my opinion are the players getting to pick and chose where they wanna go and pout if they don’t get their way. Along with the buyout market, the rich get richer and the bigger markets run supreme.

    Only in today’s NBA where a team is literally created over night like the Nets and becomes the dominant force just like that.
     
    #50 nigma2000, Mar 29, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2021
  11. Reeko

    Reeko tank culture is pathetic, growth now<lottery balls
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    38,651
    Likes Received:
    107,523
    lol at all these small market GM’s crying...nobody forced small market teams like Detroit, Cleveland, and San Antonio to go and buyout Blake, Drummond, and Aldridge

    acting like most of these buyouts aren’t from small market teams that want to save money or no longer want the player but can’t get an adequate trade for them
     
  12. lakersuck2

    lakersuck2 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,746
    Likes Received:
    3,375
    E X A C T L Y. If anyone is to blame for the buyout BS it's the stupid teams doing the buyouts when they present no real advantage for your franchise other than "good will". Small markets are killing small markets with this buyout nonsense. Props to Memphis for having the balls to stand up to the pressure of buying out Iggy last year. No GM trying to stay competitive would even think of a buyout. It's such a joke.
     
    Reeko likes this.
  13. DaonlyLA

    DaonlyLA Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    841
    Likes Received:
    436
  14. Reeko

    Reeko tank culture is pathetic, growth now<lottery balls
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    38,651
    Likes Received:
    107,523
    best believe Adam Silver loves the Lakers and Nets having a monopoly on the buyout market

    Lakers-Nets finals will get ridiculous ratings...people complain about “lack of parity” or “super teams,” but let Utah or Milwaukee make the finals...the ratings would be pure sh*t, and we all know it

    Lakers-Nets will probably have 15-16 and 16-17 Warriors-Cavs ratings or even better

    LA vs NY

    KD vs Bron plus all the other star power...the amount of skill, star power, and greatness that will be on display is what will bring in the viewers
     
  15. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Messages:
    31,746
    Likes Received:
    16,870
    The team that was stupid enough to give an undeserved player huge contract deserves to be stuck with the player, or find a way to trade him. The player who wanted security and signed a long term big contract should not be able to force a buyout and get to go to whatever team he wants.

    The simplest solution is just ban buyout.

    I do have some sympathy for small market execs. They have to work extra hard and smart in order to compete with the big market teams. It's not a leveled playing field.
     
  16. Reeko

    Reeko tank culture is pathetic, growth now<lottery balls
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    38,651
    Likes Received:
    107,523
    Force a buyout? As if Detroit, Cleveland, and San Antonio actually still wanted these dudes who just got bought out? They didn’t, and they couldn’t find a trade.

    a lot of these small market teams are incompetent
     
  17. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Easter Egg Hunter - Tell me why? نحن عائلة

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    71,231
    Likes Received:
    29,797
    They still have 'Touch all microphones and defend all microphones' Rudy!
     
  18. Reeko

    Reeko tank culture is pathetic, growth now<lottery balls
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    38,651
    Likes Received:
    107,523
    I didn’t see people on here complaining when Morey was always talking up the buyout market as a way to improve the team when the Rockets still mattered...people on here stayed wishing that player X would end up here via buyout

    be consistent
     
  19. Milos

    Milos Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2001
    Messages:
    1,237
    Likes Received:
    1,138
    Pretty much

    The 'Super Team' era has successfully circumvented the cap bc the NBA is more profitable this way

    The joke that was the Harden trade 'bidding war' is another example

    The owners could absolutely put a stop to it ... clearly they prefer the extra $$$
     
  20. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Messages:
    31,746
    Likes Received:
    16,870
    If you gave me $1000 for no reason, I would gladly take it. That doesn't mean I believe you should do that. No inconsistency there.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now