Yeah, I read it, and can somewhat concur. However, I think the bigger issue is the governments themselves. Since those same governments control the church, the media, the schools, essentially all information going into their minds. The countries that are run by THEOCRACIES are a JOKE and should not be taken seriously. Any religion that is the basis for the government is LAUGHABLE to an educated man....right MacBeth? DD
I think you reversed the meanings of secular and non-secular (just like Dan Rydell from SportsNight.)
"Theocracy" Is the correct spelling I believe. The idea of blaming the west for the creation of extremist fringes of Islam is idiotic. Its like Hillary Clinton answering the question about Bill Clinton's affairs by stating " He had a strained relationship with his mother" Its garbage. People are responsible for their actions. Just as an Israeli troop that shoots a missle into an apartment complex is responsible for his actions, a suicide bomber is responsible for his. I see both sides as wrong. I see Israeli policies that promote a separatist state based only on religion as a travesty and neo-South Africa. I see their occupation and continuous creation of settlements as a indication that they do not want peace and that they can continue to take more land in 'self-defense'. Though I sympathize with the Palestinian people, I cannot empathize with a dictatorial regime that reeks of corruption such as the PA and the Arab States. It is sad to see this continuous circle of violence. To allow extremist groups and Sharon to use the "one drop of violence" ends the peace process is allowing the fringe to win. We as Americans can simply refuse to allow our funds to be used by either side.
im not blaming western influences for suicide bombings, im blaming them for corrupting the way a person thinks. half of the terrorist bombings etc have happened after a movie was made about them, that just gives people ideas. WHAT MAN WROTE THE QURAN?????? tell me this and by the way your saying it is that the bible and the Torah(old testement) , are both written by man? im NOT blaming the west for any terrorist actions, im just saying that the western influence is that these so called muslims are thinkng that a country is more valuable than the teachings of islam,and that they will sacrify their life for a cause and disregard the fact that suicide/ terrorism is and always will be illegel.
look at my previous post BULL... why do we have holidays on december 25th... hmmm jesus's birthday doomed to fail. alright thats why the islamic empire streched from spain to china. name one islamic country in which the PEOPLE have revolted for a new leader. what corrupt spiritual leaders are you talking about, saddam, he was a dictator, no where near a spiritual leader, IRAN, they are not considered mainstream islam
and if you are saying that muslim run governments are monarchies/ dictatorships, i will let you in on a little something. the prophets government was not a monarchy or dictatorship, it was more like a democracy, ther were judges and you earned what you worked for. many arab countries are not true to islamic form for example: saudi arabia. it is based on islamic law, but its a monarchy, and many times the king gets away with things that arent 100% legal, but you cant blame the religion for this, you have to blame the corrupt MONARCH, NOT SPIRITUAL LEADER
DD... The point is that the whole thing is subjective. You could argue that in order to pursue the priorities our culture has, theocracies 'don't work', although there are some who say the degree of separation between church and state depends on who happens to be in power at the time. That said, it would be an entirely defensible position for you to take. But, whether or not you or I see the merit in them, other cultures have other priorities and values, such as remaining consistent with the tennets of their faith. To the majority in some cultures, that supercedes more wordly concerns, and that it their prerogative. To suggest that their system isn't working merely because it's not an effective reflection of our priorities is to say that ours are the only viable priorities, ours are the better ones, etc. Not only is that arrogant, it's probably inaccurate, given that the people in other cultures have a more accurate lens through which to view what makes them happy than we do. We can see what we want clearer than they can, so how can we assume that we can see what they want more clearly as well? Do you not see the subjectivity at play in that assuption? Think of this for a second...if, and I say 'if' under the assumption that you, like myself, do not ascribe to any particular faith system...but 'if' you do have a belief system which explains our presence on this planet and in this life, wouldn't that by definition be far and away the most important aspect to our lives? If you were sent to jail for 5 years, wouldn't your first question be " Why?" Yet many of us here in Western culture are content to avoid that question about our entire lives simply because the answer does not seem apparant. But to someone who does believe that they know the very reason we exist, wouldn't the separation of church and state seem ridiculous, not to mention counter-productive? Again, DD, I am asking you to put your prejudice against faith systems aside, and think for a second as if you actually knew of the actuality of God, raison d'etre, etc...Wouldn't tax rates and such see trivial, if you knew that the reason we were here was, say, to honor God? Now I don't believe in anything in particular myself, but that does not mean that I assume that even those who do should compartmentalize their faith system to fit in comfortably between Friday at 4 and Monday at 9, or whatever. I see that it permeates your entire existence, if you truly believe it, and that religion actually makes more sense when it's a part of everyday life than seperated from the state. I am not advocating a position that separation of church and state is wrong...as it alligns comfortably with my present agnosticism, but I recognize that faith either is complete or it's non-existent, and at least those systems which acknowledge that are being more honest and realistic about faith, even though that necessitates negative repercussions to such a degree that I probably wouldn't want to live under one. But ultimately it doesn't matter if we can get it or not, because the very basis of our separation of church and state is that we recognize that otherwise there would exist a state wherein some decide what is right for others, and force it upon them...right? And isn't suggesting that other cultures with other priorities are wrong to want systems which accord with those priorities are wrong, simply because they aren't ours, exactly the kind of thinking we speparated church and state to avoid? It is, after all, their culture, and as such they should be the ones to decide what works and doesn't work for them, no?
I believe most people say Muslim societies aren't working for very clear reasons- the poverty, the lack of human rights, the inability to criticize themsleve, hatred for Israel, sponsohsip of terrorism, oppression of women, and so on. To simpy criticize DD for being arrogant, IMO, is trying to get yourself "above" the argument instead of engaging in it. If you disagree with DD and think that Muslim societies are flourishing, then I would like to see the reasons why. There's no reason to end the argument simply because we have different values or see things through a different lens. Having a different perspective hardly makes us blind, and there is no reason to think we can't objectively systems other than our own.
A saying of "one nation under God" does not imply any particular religion....and it is NOT the laws under which we govern. Nor is a particular holiday which we allow anyone to celebrate HOWEVER they see fit any indicator of how the government is run. We are a government of laws, not religious laws....JUST LAWS ! doomed to fail. alright thats why the islamic empire streched from spain to china. name one islamic country in which the PEOPLE have revolted for a new leader. what corrupt spiritual leaders are you talking about, saddam, he was a dictator, no where near a spiritual leader, IRAN, they are not considered mainstream islam [/QUOTE] Yep, doomed to fail, because they are forcing ignorance on their own people, not allowing them to see the rest of the world, and that there might be something better out there. The state in Iran, Syria, former Afgahnastan all control the media, the schools, and the church...every piece of information that gets fed to their people....... Let them learn to think for themselves. As for the Bible....you bet your ARSE that it was written by man...as was the Quran...etc....all under the guise of trying to manipulate and control the ignorant masses. DD
"the poverty, the lack of human rights, the inability to criticize themsleve, hatred for Israel, sponsohsip of terrorism, oppression of women," All indicative of things we would construe as priorites, but that doesn't mean that those are everyone's priorities. That is what I said...that our way of looking at things is not the only way of looking at things, that our priorities are not necessarily the right ones for everyone else, and certainly that it is not our place to make that decision for them. That is arrogance. So to respond by listing aspects of other cultures which clash with our priorities as though that speaks for itself is to entirely miss the point I was making. ...and, as an aside, we fall short of several nations on many othe thing very things you listed, not to mention several others, like crime, inequity, racism, environmentalism, etc. Does that mean that someone in Sweden is correct when they look at us to proclaim that Capitalism/republicanism/whatever title you want to use are a joke!" ?
Yep, doomed to fail, because they are forcing ignorance on their own people, not allowing them to see the rest of the world, and that there might be something better out there. The state in Iran, Syria, former Afgahnastan all control the media, the schools, and the church...every piece of information that gets fed to their people....... Let them learn to think for themselves. As for the Bible....you bet your ARSE that it was written by man...as was the Quran...etc....all under the guise of trying to manipulate and control the ignorant masses. DD [/QUOTE] the US government controls the media too. its not like USA is perfect at all. why are all sundays government holidays. i believe that is because of the fact that it interferes with CHURCH
MacBeth, Agreed that we are not perfect. Now....name ONE Muslim run country that is doing a better job then the USA.....NAME ONE !!! As for poverty, hungar, terrorism etc...etc... Just one.....come on think Nuetron..think.... DD
Adeel..... Dude.....The US government DOES NOT control media.... Watergate, Whitewater, Clinton and the Intern, Bush lied? Our government is free...and the media is free..... Name one Muslim run state that can say the same..... One !!!!!!! The Muslim theocracies are the scourge of the earth.....ignorance on every street corner, spewing hatred at Western civilization with their jealousy. 150 years ago the Muslim countries were to be looked up at...today, they are the gum on the bottom of our shoes. DD
you take one video shown repeatedly over the tv channels and you believe that it is what islam is based upon . ISLAM DOES NOT ALLOW men to beat women for doing something wrong without it being justified. that video shown on TV could have been that the women was a prostitute and hence being beaten. ISLAM does not sponsor terror, never did and never does.POVERTY you ever been out the country? have u seen the beautiful palaces, beaches, sports facilities, and 7 star hotels in the middle east. i guess all that represents poverty. who says that muslim societies arent working. Saudi Arabia happens to be functioning very well, so does the UAE, and Oman, and Kuwait. o wait these arent MUSLIM societes are they....
this is clearly an OPINION buddy, i happen to find it awesome to have islamic law and i saw that UAE is doing a better job than USA, now whatever u say against me is your OPINION. you cant base it as a fact and go on stating it as a fact, because it is and always will be just your opinion
they dont control the media huh. then why was the daniel pearl video never shown, why are osama tapes browsed thru by the government before they are shown, why are saddam tapes checked off before they are released to the public and media.?????? edit: why was the al JAzeera website hacked by the american government, and why was ttheir base attacked? they were just expressing their right to do so. QATAR a MUSLIM society was the base for aljazeera and they did not censor one piece of information coming from Afghanistan/IRAQ.
