thats uncalled for. you're being very insulting to both the country and the religion. i'm not pumping gas for you no more. malaysian students are very competitive to get into the sciene stream. our arts stream is virtually nonexistent. they weren't getting jobs either because their education couldn't meet the requirements of thier jobs or there are scarce availability of jobs to be had. for example is the computer industry. there was a need for IT specialists few years back and now, the companies that wanted them couldn't hold up and the new IT grads are stuck with no jobs.
It's been 50+ years since the holocaust, until when should the world/US pay for their sufferings? There are many ethnic in the world that are being mass-murdered but I don't see many of them trying to redeem themselves as viciously as the Jews. E.g. the chinese in Nanking, 300 thousands chinese were murdered by japanese during WWII, did anyone give any damn about it? Should the US also pay for the sufferings of the chinese as well? why only the jews gets special treament? Is that because all the others are second-class citizen of the world to the jews? I guess i just don't read my history book hard enough that I just don't understands this very much.. As for mahathir, he's a clever politician who is not afraid to say no to the western power. Although some of his tactics is controversial, he's still quite respected among third world country and Islamic country as their leader. The problem with US is that most American are like frog who sits inside a well, they could only see the sky that's as wide as the well's opening. and that's what they thought all the sky's would be. So they have a hard time trying to put themselves in others shoes. Even trying to explains that football (as the rest of the world understands it) is something that you kick instead or running around with it while donning a whole body of armor is sometimes quite difficult for them. I know, because I stayed there for a few years of my life studying and working in the midwest. I don't know if islam is a peaceful religion or not but as a non-muslim in malaysia, we are free to pursue our own religion and do not follow any islamic law. However, muslim did have to follow so sort of religious code, such as not gamble, no drinking, or no eating during ramadan, if they are caugt, i guess they usually go to islamic court and pay fine. Although there's some radicals, most muslim i've met does not try to impose their standards on others. just my 2 cents for a better understanding of the situation in malaysia.
Well, do you think that Malaysia's policies are discriminatory according to race? It seems our disagreement on whether the policies are racist is merely over the definition of what is 'racist'. You seem to me to be saying that discriminatory policies are not racist as long as they are justified. (Whether it is justified is another point; You have brought up good reasons why it is justified, and I have given you my take that measures to help the poor do not and should not have to revolve around race.) Maybe I am the one being too sensitive, but policies that discriminate according to race sounds racist. I hope so too. Once again, I am curious to know why race has to be the issue here. First, malays being the ones behind is just such a big generalisation. There are rich millionaire malays too. Does this mean they should help out poorer malays out of their own goodwill as you say the chinese do? On the flipside, why must rich chinese be expected to help the poor chinese? It would be nice in an ideal world, but this isn't always the case. Second, I think the deeper issue here is making sure the poor do not lag too far behind, but instead of treating the problem of the poor straight on, the emphasis seems to be on malays who are poor. It is this division of the poor which I see as problematic. If you are poor, does it really matter what race you are? Since putting Anwar Ibrahim behind bars in September 1998, Mahathir has been displaying some of his most adventurous strategies, with contradictory aims: to woo back Malays, and to reinforce the support of the Chinese, whose votes in 1999 ensured his ruling coalition formed the government. For the former, he whipped up nationalistic sentiments along racist lines; for the latter, he tells the non-Muslims of the danger of Islam and the threat to their culture should PAS come to power. That has, however, left the Malays all the more reason to rally behind PAS, while Chinese leaders are given a free hand to scorn Islam. The speed in which Mahathir changes his ill-founded tactics is also interesting. Not long ago he picked a fight with Chinese activists, scorning them for questioning what is called the ‘Malay special rights’, a system whereby native Malays are accorded quotas in public institutions. UMNO had then launched a racist anti-Chinese campaign, with demonstrations and a media blitz, effectively telling Malays that without UMNO they would no longer have these rights. http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/sea01/my-repress.htm FBA: I stand to be corrected as you are more familiar with the situation. But this is what it looks like to me: Mahathir on one hand uses the threat of the more hardline islamic groups ascendency into power to get their vote, as well as making promises over more rights. When he saw that he was losing the malay vote, he went back against his promises, going in the exact opposite direction.
FBA: I genuinely hope I don't come across as being too antagonistic, and I am not trying to insult your race or country (but yes I still think the your govt does have racist elements). I think from my posts you can tell that I am in fact not drawing a comparison with "nazi germany" and the likes. The situation could be a lot worse (Indonesian chinese having to pay the army for protection during riots comes to mind), but that doesn't mean it should be condoned. I am not totally clueless as to the situation: I have visited my relatives in malaysia at various times in my life, and am not just spewing things out to antagonise you. Also, I do find your responses thoughtful and appreciate this hasn't turned into bashing... yet. hehe - Saitou
just wanted to say this is a great discussion you guys are having. i've got a malaysian chinese housemate and also two malaysian chinese working in my office. and they tell me quite a lot about malaysian politics. it's a fascinating, and delicate, balance they've got between affirmative action, democracy and economic development. i'm originally from taiwan, and i see many parallels in my native country such as the freewheeling political culture and the focus on economic development, though we don't have the same issues with racial differences. i was appalled by the anti-chinese riots in indonesia just a few years back, and i continue to be appalled by racial conflicts raging in africa and the middle east, and the value of racial harmony is certainly reinforced in my mind. in any case, i think you guys have got a good thing going there, and i wish you guys all the best with the retirement of mahathir.
saitou; i think we pretty much agree with each other on the preferential treatments, just differ on slight issues. you think malaysia should drop its policy now while i dont think this is the right time. you have relatives in the country, while i am a malaysian. but then again my views could be biased as i am a malay whos born with these slight advantages, even though i cant possibly convince you how much i think its a bad thing if it goes on too long. besides its not like i'm getting more post count writing these long posts there are of course rich malays but nowhere as rich as the chinese. to us malays, rich is having a bungalow house and a luxury car while having the means to support your children's education overseas. who do you think can rival the owner of the genting casino? my friend is the daughter of the owner of faber-castell. she is just so ridiculously loaded. their house is amazing and they live like kings. why is it about race? because its only been 50 years since we were ruled by the british and the japanese occupation, not to mention the separation of singapore. those that were born then still remember the harsh living conditions and are cautious of different people. hopefully the new generation of malaysians would really be united in creating the malaysian race. mahathir has always been like this. very harsh, never diplomatic. i cant remember any new special rights he promised after the elections, but if there is well i'm not getting any. the article you mentioned is probably by the opposition party who's main objective is to have a full islamic nation. both sides have been very vicious, more so on the opposition if you'll believe me. they're the ones who are scaring the malays into holding on to the special rights saying the chinese would take over the whole country.
i just think racist is such an ugly word where it shouldn't be used to describe these really slight (if you really think about it) advantages based on race. to me racist comes to mind humiliation, poverty, insecurity, genocide. last year when i boarded a plane from detroit to montreal, a white man said 'make way for the terrorist' infront of everyone. while i was humiliated, i just wouldn't call him a racist just yet. its that strong a word to me to just throw it around. well dadakota, bamaslammer, cool_chick, and that addel guy hasn't intrude into our discussion yet, so
you know, almost everytime i introduce myself as a malaysian to some foreigner, they'd reply 'oh i had a malaysian girlfriend once' and proceed to grin while their eyes glaze over some perverted memory. hilarious. stop stealing our women LOL
they pay for the jews because it was either take more of them in the country or pay em to settle in palestine, and USA took the latter. and ive been to malaysia twice and have to say i loved the place, not just for the beauty but especially for the hospitality of the people
thanks for the kind words. here's a tip for anyone who's thinking of visiting malaysia. try to greet the locals first and open the conversation. malaysians by nature are very shy and we have this thing about not trying to be busy bodies and fuss over people. you never know if someone just needs to be alone. but once you do open up, we're very friendly and would be very interested to know you. its different with the west. in canada example people greet you on the streets. malaysia we dont but we'd have you as a guest to a party or a meal if we got to talking.
A follow-up to the original article from the BBC. I do admit it's a bit biased, and makes the same mistakes as Mahathir himself, esp. towards the end (assuming the opinions of a majority to equate to that of the whole, etc.), but on the whole it does a good job nonetheless of representing the views of each side, and I think would contribute to the original intent of this thread. Enjoy! ------------------------------------- Muslim reaction to Mahathir speech By Jonathan Kent BBC, Putrajaya The world's Muslim leaders have been meeting in Malaysia in what was their largest gathering for three years. Though discussions were dominated by the issues of Iraq and the Palestinians, media coverage in the West highlighted the Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad's assertion that the world is ruled by Jews. Dr Mahathir steps down on 31 October after 22 years in power, and this was probably his last big set-piece speech on the world stage as a national leader. Mahathir Mohamad is hugely popular in Malaysia For a man addressing the world's Muslim leaders, he was fearless in criticising what he saw as shortcomings among his fellow believers. "For well over half a century we have fought over Palestine," he said. "What have we achieved? Nothing." Dr Mahathir damned militant violence in the Middle East as futile and counterproductive. "Our only reaction is to become more and more angry. Angry people cannot think properly," he said. "And so we find some of our people acting irrationally. They launch their own attacks, killing just about everybody including fellow Muslims to vent their anger and frustration." 'Jews rule the world' It was not the first time that the Malaysian Prime Minister has berated fellow Muslims in this way. He harked back to the great Islamic civilizations of 1,000 years ago when Muslim scholars built on the scientific and mathematical knowledge of the Greeks while Europeans were still mired in the dark ages. Muslims should embrace knowledge he argued. But the greater part of Dr Mahathir's speech risks being ignored outside the Muslim world because of his allegations of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy. "The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them," he told the assembled prime ministers and heads of state. The Malaysians insist that what Dr Mahathir had been trying to say, was that despite having been a marginal and persecuted community the Jews have survived - by use of brains not brawn. "We are up against a people who think. They survived 2,000 years of pogroms not by hitting back but by thinking," Dr Mahathir declared. "They invented Socialism, Communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others. "With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power." Opinions divided This is not the first time Dr Mahathir has made remarks about Jewish people, but the news wires to London, New York and Paris burned hot with the quotes. Soon, reaction to his words began to filter back. "We view them with contempt and derision," said the US State Department. "Gravely offensive," said the foreign minister of Italy, the current chair of the European Union. Malaysian diplomats in London and Berlin were summoned for a dressing down. Dr Mahathir, a well-travelled politician of vast experience, surely knew his remarks would be roundly condemned in the West. It may give those critics, who dislike his trenchant criticism of globalisation and the dominance of the West, the perfect excuse to dismiss him as irrelevant. But the reaction from among the delegates and journalists was very telling. Afghan President Hamid Karzai said he had not interpreted the remarks as being anti-Semitic, while Yemen's Foreign Minister Abubakar al-Qirbi said: "I don't think they were anti-Semitic at all. I think he was basically stating the fact to the Muslim world." One Malaysian Chinese reporter with an international news agency rushed to Dr Mahathir's aid. "He's my Prime Minister," she said. "Of course I'll defend him." "But surely you don't believe all this about an international Jewish conspiracy?" I asked. "Yes," she said. "It's true. Everyone knows it is." An Iranian journalist privately took the same line. "Of course the Jews rule the world," he said. "Look at America. They control all the companies. The politicians need their money for elections so they support Israel." These were not the marginal neo-Nazis spilling their views over the internet, these were intelligent professionals. They agree with what Dr Mahathir said. Malaysians surprised Such views go unchallenged and are common currency in much of the Muslim world. In Malaysia's racially diverse society crude racial stereotypes abound - the Malays are lazy, the Chinese greedy, the Indians drunk. All are as bankrupt as any racial stereotype, but all are used casually by a nation of people who nevertheless rub along together pretty successfully. So there was surprise that Dr Mahathir's remarks should attract so much condemnation in the West. There is no understanding here of the taboo that surrounds anti-Jewish views in the West. There is no comprehension that Westerners' views of themselves changed forever when British and American soldiers stumbled among the skeletal forms of those who had survived the Nazi death camps and discovered the mass graves of the millions who died. The Muslim world does not live with this guilt, does not pay much heed to the distinction Western critics of the Israeli state make between it and the Jews. For them Israel, Jews, they are all the same - they see them as people who stole Arab land in 1947 and who have compounded their crimes ever since.
Dubya's response: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ap/20031020/ap_on_re_as/asian_summit_malaysia -- Bush Condemns Malaysian Remarks on Jews By PATRICK McDOWELL, Associated Press Writer BANGKOK, Thailand - President Bush (news - web sites) on Monday personally condemned the Malaysian prime minister for his statement that Jews rule the world, pulling Mahathir Mohamad aside at an international economic meeting to tell him the remarks were "wrong and divisive," Bush's spokesman said. White House press secretary Scott McClellan quoted Bush as telling the Malaysian leader, "It stands squarely against what I believe in." Bush confronted Mahathir between meetings of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (news - web sites) summit, McClellan said, inserting himself into a simmering controversy. Earlier Monday, Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, signaled Bush's disapproval as he sat down in the same room with Mahathir and 19 other leaders. It is the last of the annual forums that Mahathir will attend before retiring Oct. 31 after 22 years in power. Mahathir, Asia's senior statesman in Asia whose pugnacious, articulate speeches against globalization and U.S. policy in the Middle East have a strong following, triggered an uproar last week at a summit of Islamic countries by stating that "Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them." The thrust of his address was that the world's 1.3 billion Muslims had been outmaneuvered by "a few million Jews" and needed to give up violence in favor of using greater unity and improved education to defend their interests peacefully. But the comments about Jews prompted outrage from Washington, Australia and the European Union (news - web sites). "Everyone thinks the comments were hateful, they are outrageous," Rice told reporters. Bush "thinks those remarks were reprehensible. I do not think they are emblematic of the Muslim world," she said. Secretary of State Colin Powell and Malaysian Foreign Minister Syed Hamid Albar focused on the fallout in one-on-one in talks. Syed Hamid said afterward that he had stressed to Powell that Mahathir's speech was mostly critical of Muslims, with just "one or two portions" that created problems. "He knows that the bulk of the contents of the speech contains a lot of good ideas," Syed Hamid said. Powell did not speak to reporters. The outraged Western reaction was in marked contrast to the standing ovation Mahathir received from the leaders of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference — including several U.S. allies. Mahathir has contended that his remarks about Jews were "stating the facts." However, he didn't bring up the dispute during an APEC panel discussion Monday on globalization.
I don't think Malaysia's views of Israel are on par with the rest of the world, considering that one cannot enter the country with so much as an Israeli stamp in their passport.
i guess this must be why Malaysia finds itself on the wrong side of all those 130-4 UN General Assembly votes on Israel.
voting against a country in the UN and barring a person from entering your country just for having visited that country are pretty different things. I can only *imagine* how the world would respond if the US did such a thing. There are many places I would love to visit in Asia and the Middle East (malaysia, indonesia, lebanon, bahrain, UAE, even Iran) but if the citizens and/or governments are so feral and hate-filled that I would have to get a new passport just to avoid having to show an old Israeli visa I'd rather not give them my tourist dollars. I had a chance to go to Tehran with a friend who is from there, but the whole plan was nixed when I realized I had an Israeli stamp in my passport. That's the Islamic world's problem, not mine.
yes i agree they are hurting themselves by doing this, I believe they are trying to pull of what USA did to IRaq. sanctions, but instead here, it really doesnt affect either side too much
i dont think this is true at all. i've had friends of the family who's been to israel and been in and out of malaysia. however, malaysian passports aren't valid for israel.
i dont know about the other countries but i can assure you that your first impression of malaysians or malaysia (and indonesia) itself wont be hate-filled. but please dont think that you're doing us a favor by visiting and that we're so begging for your mighty tourist dollars. that sort of arrogant attitude you can keep with yourself.
Here is the Malaysian PM's answer to the barrage he has taken for his Nazi-like positions. To him, the criticism proves hit point that the Jews do control everything! What a fool. If the Jews controlled everything, wouldn't it stand to reason there would be no Palestinians in the so-called "Occupied" Territories? If a Muslim world leader believes this mularkey, what does that say about the everyday rank-and-file Muslim? Mahathir: Jew comment out of context Dr Mahathir Pichai Chuensuksawadi Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad says his comments about Jews during a speech at an Islamic summit last week, which prompted harsh criticism in the West, had been taken out of context. ``In my speech I condemned all violence, even the suicide bombings, and I told the Muslims it's about time we stopped all these things and paused to think and do something that is much more productive. That was the whole tone of my speech, but they picked up one sentence where I said that the Jews control the world,'' he told Bangkok Post in an exclusive interview yesterday, which covered aspects of his 22 years as leader of Malaysia, as well as his straight-forward views on terrorism, democracy and US policy. Dr Mahathir added, however, that ``the reaction of the world shows that they [Jews] do control the world''. During a speech at the Organisation of Islamic Conference in Malaysia last week, Dr Mahathir said Jewish people, because of their ties with the United States, had an influence in the world which far outweighed their numbers. ``It cannot be that there is no other way; 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews,'' he said. The United States, Israel, Australia and the European Union have accused Dr Mahathir of anti-Semitism. Dr Mahathir said the Americans and Europeans were out to condemn him. The European Union had done nothing when Italian Prime Minister Silvio Burlesconi made a statement calling Muslims terrorists. ``Did the European Union pass a resolution to say that this was against Muslims? Why is it that when people condemn Muslims the European Union does not try to say anything?'' Dr Mahathir said his comments about Israel and Jews were true. ``Israel is a small country. There are not many Jews in the world. But they are so arrogant that they defy the whole world. Even if the United Nations say no, they go ahead. Why? Because they have the backing of all these people.'' Dr Mahathir said that in his speech he urged Israelis and Arabs to stop the killing and to think, pause and settle. ``I even quoted from the Koran, which says that when the enemy offers to make peace you must accept. I told the Muslims you must accept even if the terms are bad. You have to negotiate. This is the teaching of Islam. All that was in my speech... But those things were blacked out,'' he said. http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/21Oct2003_news01.html
