Here is a link to a published book on Chinese indentured laborers aka coolies: http://books.google.com/books?id=PW...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA29,M1 Skimming through, I find there is strong consensus among scholars that Chinese labor in the nineteenth century was every bit as slavery except the name. Scholars even conclude the treatment of a Chinese coolie was worse than that of an African slave. But, on technicality, you can probably argue the research was done on Chinese coolies in Cuba, not exactly on those working in the good ol' U.S.A.
And that's my point... for over a century (centuries if you go beyond just America), it was slavery... even if they refer to it as "indentured servitude" or anything else. In some cases, it was even worse because of the greater value placed on a black slave and the lack of pre-existing hatred. I don't mean this as an insult in any way but I don't think you have as much of an understanding of Irish history as you think you do, even if you want to limit the discussion to Irish American history. I just happen to have done a lot of research over the years on this particular subject. Since you have Irish in your blood, I think you'd be interested to learn more of the facts if you ever have the time. Check out some of the quotes from the article I posted on the last page. If you have doubts about any of it, research further... there is a lot more to it. That's only the tip of the iceberg.
The Mac was always there and preceded Anglicanized changes....it was changed to Mc, true. At least that's the case with the Mc surname that runs in my family, McMahon. It was MacMathghamha before it was Anglicanized....but that Mac prefix goes back for as long as there are records in Ireland, as I understand it...and certainly well before the English because many of the kings of the Middle Ages in Ireland had Mac- surnames
All this debate about the Irish reminds me of the quote from Blazing Saddles: "Alright, we'll take the n****** and the ch**** but not the Irish!" Inappropriate, but funny. There is no question that the deplorable institutionalized nature of slavery has had a much more deleterious effect upon African Americans and there descendants than the mistreatment of other minorities. The primary difference being the legally sanctioned subjugation of a race.
Interesting thread. My thoughts/questions: I thought Mac was used in Scotland and Mc in Ireland? I also find it interesting - the last names of some of our BB players throughout the league. Meaning the black players born in the US. Like Tracy McGrady. A few possibilities about that. I am white and in school my best friend was black - with surname starting Mc. I met her grandfather and he had green eyes. Anyway - there is so much to this and I find the older I get - the more I want to know about some aspects of American history. New Orleans for example - what 200 years ago - the mixing of French and African blood - was it almost commonplace at that time? Much less so now? Also thinking about the white jockey Calvin Borel and his manner of speech - ie the post of PGabrial. in this case Cajun? Started as a mix of English, French, Spanish and African? And obviously is still heard today - if a bit watered down - ie Calvin - even with his teeth in. FWIW I had Scottish ancestors that came to the US indentured - I think the time period was seven years.
I was talking about Mc but you are right to a certain extent. The truth is our keyboards can't even capture true Gaelic. Even MacMathghamha is written using the English language. Gaelic was a totally different language that became Anglicized during colonziation. If you want to be technical, a girl wouldn't even have the "Mac" in any part of her name. She would get a "Nic." They used patronyms back then instead of surnames.
I do think Asian-Americans carry a woe-is-me type attitude where they spend a lot of time moping in self-pity because they aren't confident enough to deal with what the system throws at them. You can't change how the world works, you can only change how you react to it.
very true...it is an entirely different language. i did not know the Nic part! very interesting!!! and i've studied this stuff for quite some time....any good sources on irish history that you would recommmend specifically??? any on the irish slave trade at all that you would recommend? that and houston history are absolutely fascinating to me...i suppose because i have such strong connection points with both.
I am half Irish American/half Iranian. I only became interested in this stuff after graduating from college in the 90s. I actually hated history when I was in school. It would put me to sleep. The only interesting history course I ever took was African American Studies to fill a requirement in college, and that was mostly due to the professor being very good. As far as sources, I studied this stuff on and off for a few years but hadn't touched the subject in a long time until this thread. At one point, I could have given you a bunch of good sources. For the most part, I got everything online. I also happen to have an aunt on both sides of my family that is into history. On the Irish side, she was able to locate when our first ancestor came over from Ireland. It was during the famine period and I believe he came from Cork.
i have some family that's done that, too, on my mother's side. brothers came over after father was killed...landed in Philly...immediately "enlisted" to fight for the Union. moved to Tyler for 2 generations...next generation moved to Houston. we have honorable discharge papers from the army...a letter from one brother to another about the land in Texas, which I think he saw while serving in the Civil War....and other stuff i'm forgetting!
The only reason I brought up Irish American history in this thread was to correct a couple of earlier comments that I felt weren't completely accurate. I wasn't necessarily trying to make comparisons to African American history, although I do think a lot of people would be surprised at some of the similarities once they learned the facts. There is no doubt that Irish American history and Irish history, in general, are poorly understood subjects by the average American. It's not their fault. It's just not taught here. I only learned more by doing my own leg work.
That's really interesting, especially the parts about the discharge papers and the letter. It makes the past a reality. Reading that letter from one brother to another must be pretty neat. You can almost get inside their mind for a brief moment. The aunt on my mother's side that studies history has an Iranian Community School in Vienna, VA. Her knowledge of Persian history as well as our family history is scary deep. I believe she can trace our family roots back hundreds and hundreds of years. I never saw the stuff but I know it goes way, way back.
Doesn't proper grammar require you to answer the first two questions with a same sounding YES, if they do have Dr. Pepper? English isn't even my second language, so please correct me if I am wrong. As for the dog food reference, it would have amazed me more if someone had eaten it after he got a positive answer. Not agreeing with OP's point, but the responses starting from post #2 to the end of page were all very negative and defensive.
I'm not insulted at all, and have enjoyed all of the information you brought to the conversation. I will be the first to tell you that I'm no expert in Irish American History. I know bits of my own families Irish heritage, and some of the conflicts between blacks and Irish in NY in the mid 19th century. I'm always interested in learning more, and like I said I appreciate you sharing this information. I look forward to investigating more about it. I have a very limited knowledge of the subject.
It was a joke meant to poke fun at some of the generalizations made by the OP. You're right though, that was inappropriate.
I really don't have much to add, but I am LMAO at someone posting that slaves were "paid" because they were provided with crap clothes, shelter, and leftover parts of food that others didn't want....at the same time being beaten for disobedience, raped and sold like cattle. The prior really offsets the latter. "I can kill ya boy and rape ya wife and daughters, but at least I give ya clothes and food"!!! I honestly don't think I have ever heard that argument before.
