Jeff -- That's really interesting...again, I have never written music, so it is hard for me to judge that. I will say I find their music to be unique...they seem to have created their own little mini-genre that guys like John Mayer are following. I find their music to be diverse...make sense?..like on Before These Crowded Streets...to hear a song like Crush and The Last Stop on the same album is quite unique, I'd say. I agree wholeheartedly that it is hard to argue that they are great musicians... Obviously at some point this is a personal tastes matter that is beyond argument...DMB's music really speaks to me, for some reason. There's an optimism in their music that I found sorely lacking finishing high school with emerging groups like Pearl Jam, Nirvana and Soundgarden. When they trail off into instrumentals, it's amazing. They're just an unbelievably fun live act. I think they're about their music and less about image, which I found quite refreshing back in the mid-90's when I first woke up to them. Plus, I love jazz music and fusion, and there are strong elements of that in DMB. I just don't see that kind of creativity among popular acts today. I mean, there are other acts out there making more money, I'm sure. But I don't find a lot of creativity in most of those acts, you know? DMB is kinda in their own class, to me. But I suppose I've become quite biased! I liked "Everyday" when others didn't (though it is my least favorite DMB release)...I suppose I've kinda come to know the guys and their backgrounds a bit, so it's kinda like following them along their musical lives and seeing where that takes them. Also...music takes on meaning when you can relate it to events in your life...I was listening to Crash as I pulled up to the church to get married in 1997...I had a friend call me sometime in 1995 or so at about 2 in the morning to tell me he heard a band at a party at Washington & Lee in Virginia that I would love..said there was a lot of jazz influence and he thought of me when he heard them..thought I would like them...my kid and I dance and sing to one song from Listener Supported almost every night before we read a story and put him down to sleep...he loves to scream "CUT, CUT" during the appropriate points of Ants Marching...my wife and I have listened to their music so much...so much of the music reminds me of her...I can't help but get a little emotional thinking about the support I get from my wife everytime I hear Dave sing, "so much you have given, Love, that I would give you back again and again" on Crash...has a lot of significance. When music does that, the musician has done his job. Who among current popular acts would you categorize as better songwriters?
Max: I understand what you mean. I know that it is rather subjective, but I think the comparison to jazz is a good one. Good composers in jazz are RARE which is why so many artist play standards. Many of the great standards were written by non-performers (Rogers & Hammerstein, Gershwin, etc) who were really only composers. That is part of the jazz ideology - there are composers and players but often they are different people. I'm not knocking DMB as songwriters. I like them and I think they represent what is good about music in general. I just think that they are MORE about the performance (meaning playing, not necessarily playing in front of anyone) than about the composition. Most people who talk about DMB in the context of writing think that, for them, songs are a vehichle for their playing, not vice versa. Generally, great songs don't lose much if they are done in a different genre. They could be adapted for jazz or pop or folk. The composition can stand on its own without the aid of great musicians. DMB's songs really need their type of musical form to sound the way they do. They don't translate well. From the way they are arranged and played right down to how they are sung, they are written specifically for that situation. That's not a bad thing. It just means that they are less concerned about composing and more concerned about performing and, frankly, that's what makes them great. As for modern songwriters who I think are very good, there are not a lot. Many believe Diane Warren is still a great songwriter, but I personally find her to be overly cheesy. But, in terms of quality, song-for-song, long-term writing there are not many performers today that represent great songwriting. To be honest, I'm not sure that most artists today are able to sustain long-enough careers to be successful, which is why so many writers from the 60's and 70's were able to become great. Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, the Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, Billy Joel, Carole King, Phil Collins, Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye...these were/are considered great writers. There just isn't that calliber of writer/performer today and a lot of that is attributable to the fact that the longevity of artists has dropped by a mile since the mid 80's.
Did Marvin Gaye write his own music? I was under the impression that almost everything that came out of Motown was written for the artists, not by them. Kind of like country music today.
Have to disagree about Aerosmith. Looking at "Oh Yeah"'s track list, I realized how many of those songs I really liked. Hard for me to call a band overrated when I can listen to that much from their body of work.
It's true that Motown had most of their songs written, however Marvin Gaye and Smokey Robinson were two of the primary staff writers. Gaye wrote songs like I Heard it Through the Grapevine, Dancin' in the Streets, Ain't No Mountain High Enough and of course all the stuff he did in the 70's like Let's Get It On, Mercy Mercy Me, What's Goin' On and Sexual Healing. Songs like Hitchhike and Can I Get a Witness were recorded by the Rolling Stones and, of course, Dancin' in the Streets and Ain't No Mountain High enough were popularized by the Supremes.
Jeff -- thanks for the info... how about lyrics?? how would you judge their lyrics?? believe me, i'm not arguing...you just know infinitely more about music composition and such...i gave up piano lessons in 5th grade and never looked back! but i am thinking about taking guitar lessons sometime soon...just have to set aside the time to do it!
creed sux, blink 182 used to be good, but they need stop writing songs about high school, weezer used to be so great, but their albums have gotten progressively worse, so now i can say.... WEEZER BLOWS () ====> ()
Since the song was written about 5 years before CCR released their first record, I doubt it. God, that is about the worst version of that song too. Ugh!
Honestly, there are usually three kinds of great songwriters... 1. The Tunesmith 2. The Poet 3. The Storyteller The Tunesmith definition fits everyone from Rogers & Hammerstein to Diane Warren to Elton John. These are usually people who write hooks that dominate and lyrics that are slightly on the edge of cheese (sometimes going all the way into cheese). In their cases, the lyrics play a significant role, but it is the HOOK, whether that be lyrical, musical or both, that forms the basis for the song. To go back to the Marvin Gaye reference, the HOOK of I Heard It Through the Grapevine is probably more significant than the lyrics, but it is still a great song. The Poet definition fits Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, etc. They are usually more lyric-oriented and are concerned less with music overall though that isn't always true. Mitchell was a brilliant musician, but her lyrics were also amazing. Sting often fits this category as well - really intellegent, almost literary lyrics with great musical accompanyment. The Storyteller would be like Billy Joel or Lyle Lovett. These are guys who tell real stories with their music. The music plays a role to support the story, but the focus is on what is being said. Most pop icons of songwriting go back and forth between all three. The Beatles flirted with all of them, for example. As for Matthews, I see him as more of a poet. He tends to do like Mitchell, writing lyrics that could stand on their own as poetry but really benefit from a groove much like beat poets of the 60's. Generally, I think DMB is a little too cryptic at times, but I think he is a good lyricist. One thing I would note is that his lyrics aren't particularly easy to sing meaning they are pretty well married to the musical form and to his voice. Take it from someone who has been asked to cover DMB songs. It ain't easy nevermind the difficulties performing the music. That is one of the things that great songwriters don't tend to do. A great song can be performed or sung in a myriad of different ways and doesn't require the deft touch of one singer. The main key here being, could just about anyone do the song and have it be recognizable even if it were done as jazz or country or power pop, etc? The songs that can stand on their own without the need or support of the original artist have a better chance of being great. Lyrically, musically and otherwise, DMB's songs don't. I should note that some of the best bands to ever record fit this bill as well. I mean no one covers Led Zepplin and they are undoubtedly one of the greatest rock bands of all time. The Rolling Stones were a pretty simple, straight ahead rock band with a very defined genre of music. REM and U2 aren't really sing-songy. No one is going to re-do Jump by Van Halen unless they are joking. Bottom line is you don't have to be a great songwriter to be a great artist or musician or band. DMB is great at what they do and that's good enough.
Im not a DMB fan but assuming these guys write their own **** just as many of these other bands do and are being classed as most overrated it just makes you wonder what people listen to. I respect the artist not the singer. Most Overrated - Todays Pop Music Most Underrated - System of a Down
Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. Come to think of it, VH1's "Legends" episode on Marvin Gaye did explicitly state that he wrote "What's Going On" and "Mercy, Mercy Me" after having his political consciousness raised. It's not like Barry Gordy or the record label would have written either of those songs for him (or any artist).
i would consider eminem a great lyricist. using jeffs lil thingy, i would say hes a poet. alot of music is overrated most mainstream music is. limp bizkit was popular? why?
My own nomination would be Sheryl Crow. The word "cliche" always pops to mind when I hear any of her songs. "Soak up the Sun" is this year's winner of the "Most Likely To Appear in a Commercial" award-- you talk about trying to write a pop single, here's Exhibit A. And that other song, "Steve McQueen", ought to be titled "Steve Miller", since she rips off "Take the Money and Run" in the chorus. I mean, being derivative of Steve Miller. Is there a worse indictment? I got your pompitous right here, you fat b*stard.
Why do so many people on all these message boards like System of a Down? They're alright, but they're definitely nothing special.
I don't know if you saw the story behind What's Goin' On, but apparently Gaye decided he really wanted to stretch out and write a record he believed was inspired by God. He called Gordy who was in the Bahamas on vacation and told him he was writing a war protest record. Gordy told him not to throw away his career by doing songs no one wanted to hear. Oops.
Jeff -- I know what you mean about Dave's songs being uniquely Dave's to perform...he does seem like a hard one to cover, though I've heard some Mayer live performances on the net where he covers DMB... Have you heard Busted Stuff yet? You mentioned earlier you thought DMB might have blown their wad on Under the Table and Dreaming...I'm wondering if Busted Stuff changes your opinion of that...I was surprised to see the Chronicle review yesterday call Busted Stuff, "DMB's finest hour." Gave it an A+.
Well, Mayer covering Matthews isn't much of a stretch. That seems to be one of his primary influences. Just bits and pieces of Busted Stuff. I thought that they leaned more towards the songs on this one but I really just didn't think the songs were all that great. I thought they were ok, but, again, they were more about their own style than they were about great songwriting. The thing is, I don't a lot of the "great songs" written by Bob Dylan or Dianne Warren or Elton John or whoever. I've always tended to be a "B side" type person. On a record where the hit was song 1 on side 1, I usually like the last song on side 2. That's just me. There are lots of bands I love who I think wrote great songs that wouldn't fit the traditional category, but that's just personal taste factoring in. That doesn't make the great songs I despise great. I can recognize that they are good, they just aren't favorites of mine.
