Oh absolutely! I mean, we all know that the military are too stupid to make up their own minds, so that is the only way to explain it...
one of my closest friends is a Marine. he would NEVER EVER NEVER bring himself to vote for a Democrat. I find that thought quite common among those in the military, really. It's been that way for quite some time...there is very little that Bush could do or Kerry could say that would change their minds. just my experience.
Actually I saw that sampling too. Unfortunately that poll was for only the officers and not the rank and files soldiers and the "scrubs" like some in the administration like to see them as. So how can such a poll be taken seriously? I still feel like the military vote will likely break right (only barely) but the breakdown will surprise many.
...ok, so I rounded up big time Fuzzy math I tell you. ______________________________________________ Troops in survey back Bush 4-to-1 over Kerry By Dave Moniz, USA TODAY An unscientific survey of U.S. military personnel shows they support President Bush for re-election by a 4-to-1 ratio. Two-thirds of those responding said John Kerry's anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam make them less likely to vote for him. President Bush greets troops aboard a flight headed to Iraq and Kuwait in Bangor Maine in September. Kevin Bennett, Bangor Daily News In the survey of more than 4,000 full-time and part-time troops, 73% said they would vote for Bush if the election were held today; 18% said they would vote for Kerry. Of the respondents, 59% identified themselves as Republicans, 20% as independents and 13% as Democrats. The survey was conducted Sept. 15-28 by the Army Times Publishing Co., which distributes the weekly newspapers Army Times, Navy Times, Air Force Times and Marine Corps Times. (Army Times Publishing is owned by Gannett, which also publishes USA TODAY.) Army Times Publishing sent e-mails to more than 31,000 subscribers and received 4,165 responses on a secure Web site. The publisher cautioned that the results are not a scientific poll. Its readers are older, higher in rank and more career-oriented than the military as a whole. Even so, experts who examined the survey results said they do not bode well for the Kerry campaign's efforts to woo the military, a traditionally Republican and conservative voting bloc. The Kerry campaign has highlighted his war record in an effort to burnish his credentials as a prospective commander in chief. "You can't dismiss" the results, said Peter Feaver, a Duke University political scientist who for years has studied the political leanings of the U.S. military. Feaver said it's unlikely that Bush will receive 70% of votes cast by military personnel. But the results suggest it will be difficult for Kerry to make substantial gains among a group that has strongly supported Republican presidential candidates in the post-Vietnam era. Feaver said he suspects Kerry is losing support among those in uniform because he seems less committed than Bush to prosecuting the war in Iraq. Richard Kohn, a University of North Carolina history professor who has studied the political culture of the military, said the Bush campaign has been effective in creating the impression that, if elected, Kerry might "cut and run" in Iraq. "None of us who has studied Kerry's character believes that, but the Bush campaign has established in the public's mind a connection to Vietnam," Kohn said. Kerry campaign spokesman David Wade called the Army Times Publishing effort "an inaccurate e-mail survey" and said that Kerry has "the vision and values to keep faith with military families and America's veterans." Of survey respondents, 65% of active-duty and 67% of Guard and reserve troops said that Kerry's activities after Vietnam made them less likely to vote for him. Kerry served in Vietnam as a naval officer and was awarded a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. He protested the war after returning home. Only 12% of active-duty troops and 16% of Guard and reserve troops said Bush's actions in the National Guard made them less likely to vote for him. Bush received a coveted pilot's slot in the Texas Air National Guard during the height of the Vietnam War and missed a number of mandatory drills after he stopped flying fighter jets in April 1972. Active-duty, Guard and reserve troops number about 2.4 million, a small slice of the electorate. But in closely contested states such as Florida, their votes could be crucial. The survey found little difference in presidential support among the four military branches. While there is a lot of information available on how military veterans have voted, data on the voting patterns of active-duty personnel are scarce. Feaver said experts believe military personnel favored Bush over Al Gore 2-1 in the 2000 presidential race. A number of military analysts, including Feaver, had been predicting as recently as this summer that Bush would suffer a slight erosion this year based on a number of factors, including misgivings about the conduct of the war in Iraq and dislike of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in some military circles. Of those responding to the survey, about three-fifths said they approve of the way Bush is handling the situation in Iraq; one-quarter said they disapprove. Military personnel who responded to the survey said they were generally happy with their jobs: 73% said they would re-enlist. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-03-bush-troops_x.htm
Nope...the swiftvet ads may have justified some military peoples predisposition to vote Republican...but without them, they likely would have found another reason to NEVER EVER NEVER vote democrat. Just the way of the world. Our vet posters...Tampaslammer, Chance, Treeman(M.I.S), others (?), seem to be more GOP then DEM.
what??? the swiftvets allegedly lied about his actions during the Vietnam War...this says these folks are unhappy about his actions after it...after he got home.
I thought it was also the Swiftvets who disparaged Kerry for throwing his medals (ribbons, whatever) and speaking to Congress. My apologies. I guess it would be the Bush campaign itself that lied about Kerry's testimony in Congress, implying that he indicted the entire military when the only people he accused of "war crimes" were the leaders who thought up and okayed the "free fire zones."
andy -- the people whom i've met from the military aren't stupid. they're not suckers falling for every lie in the world, while all the smaht kids are seeing above it. just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they're stupid or gullible. they may have a different set of values than you have.
I don't see military people as stupid either, but they are just as likely to be taken in by statements that are not based in fact as the rest of us. Since the only news coverage I saw of the Congressional testimony was based on out of context quotes spouted by the likes of Limbaugh and O'Reilly, I would expect those lies to have a great deal of traction. I wouldn't expect your average person in today's military to have time to look at the actual testimony because of their commitments and circumstances. Ima, (and Max) I don't have any problem at all with people (not just military people, but anyone) having their own opinion. My point is that when so many people's opinions are based on lies and distortions, it makes it very difficult for me not to call out those lies. All the people I have talked to regarding the after-'Nam activities that Kerry engaged in had bought the lies until I showed them the actual quotes from Kerry's testimony.
but my point, andy, is that most of the people i know who are in the military made up their minds before kerry was even nominated.
Those would not be the people I was talking about. I would be referring to people who WERE influenced by those lies. I have personally come into contact with 3 military people and 2 others who were taken in by those lies and saw my point once I showed them Kerry's testimony.
From your post, I assumed you were talking about the people in the poll. Were these the same people you talked to?
Two of the military people were undecided even considering the "overstatements" and those two people have decided to vote for Kerry in the ensuing months (both of them were reserving judgement for the debates). One of them was and TMK still is an ardent Bush supporter who agreed with me that the GOP comments regarding Kerry's testimony were not factual, but still planned to vote for Bush. Both of the nonmilitary people were planning on voting for Kerry beforehand, but had reservations about his Congressional testimony until I actually showed them the text of his comments rather than the sound bites.
