hi Hold'em I look at breaking down double teams very simply as either: 1. Find the open man on the perimeter -OR- 2. Send cutters to the hoop. -OR- 3. Bring your center out to the high post or top of the key. If the double succeeds in stifling the offensive player, in this case, the center from making the pass, much less, a safe one, then hat's off to the defense. However, from our vantage point, there are a lot of things that Yao can do and perhaps, things that we have yet to see too in JVG's gameplan. To date, the things that I have seen and that work to great success are numbers 1 and 2. Often, you'll see the ball swung, not once, but twice, to the weak side. Interestingly, JVG seems to have no qualms giving the green light to whoever it may be -- Cuttino, or Jackson -- to take the 3 if indeed their defender is the odd man out and they are open behind the line. If we pass crisp enough and respond quickly to double teams, then it's almost a certainty that we'll get a high percentage shot off (Sactown does this very well, FYI). The other tactic, number 2 is what I prefer. And in recent games, I wonder if our guards are getting lazy on cutting to the hoop. I see it with Nachbar and MoT with the second unit. But it would be nice to see more of that with our starters. My hunch is that Yao, and his defender(s) may be clogging too much space near the paint... and that is a disincetive to would be cutters to go to the rim. A lot depends on who is doubling up on Yao. If it's a guard cheating on defense then, going to the perimeter makes a lot of sense. If it's a power forward, then dumping it off to Cato for a dunk makes a lot of sense (which we've seen a couple of times this season). Number 3, is the one which we haven't seen as often. My best analogy is to say, "let's flashback to Rik Smits and the Pacers." There is less incentive for defenders to double up at the top of the key b/c that usually leaves a gaping hole through the lanes and in the paint. Perhaps, we'll see Yao taking more of those 12 footers in the future. The blind-side doubles are what gets Yao and most centers by surprise (e.g. a guard sneaking up through the lane to pick a center's pocket). The best remedy here is simple communication. My two cents. theSAGE
It's a good summary of Steve and Cat's game. 1) They have great one-on-one, create-with-the-dribble moves. They are the kind of players who would put the ball down on the floor at least once without going nowhere before they can comfortably shoot the ball. 2) They don't understand the Roll in PnR very well either. 3) On a fast break, they always try to finish themselves. You see these guys all the time in pick-up games. When they play, it's pretty much every man for himself except for the occasional fancy passes, behind the back or alley-oops. That is the nature of their game. They are trying to change it. We've seen Steve cuts down some dribbling. We've seen Cat catches and shoots more and more. They still have a long way to go but they've made some progress.
Yesterday, in the 3Q, the Clips used Margette to initiate the D team trap on Yao. Yao handled it very poorly once, and expertly the second time. the first time, Yao had the ball at chest level. the D team started to swipe at the ball. Yao had to bend his body to protect the ball. Margette tied up the ball for a jump-ball call. the second time, Yao held the ball near his chin, swung his body to Margette while cocking his right hand to pass the ball. Margette ran into Yao's left elbow and was floored. no harm, no foul. Yao passed the ball to one the guards. with Margette on down, it was 5 on 4 half-court game.
By my recollection, Yao is also right handed. Thus, it behooves him to keep his RIGHT elbow up, and torso biased left for moves to his left. Based on my recollection, Yao also has a tendency to hold the ball on its "sides" as opposed to "top" and "side". When defenders swipe or tie up the ball, it's usually from the top side down. By holding the ball on the top side, you're most assured of getting slapped in the hand and getting the foul call on the defender. Legs are also another impt facet. If Yao can't back opponents down with his back, he needs to use his legs to "cut" people off. Some coaches call this "crossing" where you essentially reach wide with your legs to "cut" off the opponents lateral mobility. Malone uses this very well. Yao has long legs and should use them to his advantage in the post. But going back to your question, the best way to beat the double, if you were indeed Yao, is to simply: 1. see it/anticipate it and either. 2. spin away from it OR immediately pass out of it. The instances in which Yao, and any other center, for that matter, gets caught in doubles, is when they are late/slow to respond either b/c they didn't see it coming or b/c the entry pass was an errant pass (too high, too low, off the mark, etc.). theSAGE
MacBeth, If what you said in the original post is true, then I hate it. First, I hate Pat Riley, period. I hope JVG is not a Riley clone. Second, I hate officials that "adapt" to the playing style. I hate it when they let Shaq knock people down as his "playing style" without calling offensive foul simply because if they did he'd get fouled out every game. I hate it when they give star players all the benefits. Refs are supposed to enforce the rules, not adapt the rules to the playing style. If a defense is too physical, they should call it and if that fouls out the whole team, let it be. Actually, if they do call it, the team will adapt to the rule, rather than the other way around. The officiating of the NBA is bad enough as is. I hate it if any coach is trying to force them into even worse situations. Third, I hate playing defense at the expense of your offense. I hate thuggy defense to begin with. But if that contribute to hampering of your own offense, then I don't want it. I don't buy (or maybe refuse to buy) the "offense get people to watch but defense win games" motto. Defense doesn't win games, at least not consistently. It keeps you in games. Unlike footfall, defense in basketball doesn't score points. You still need offensive talents to put points on the board. Ironically, officials hate Riley. Remember his outrage last season for the refs deliberately calling against him? And as many in this thread has pointed out, even Riley adapt to his personnel. None of his big three with the Lakers, Kareem, Magic, and Worthy were the physical bruisers of the so-called "Riley-type" players. I hope JVG doesn't force Yao to be so. I'm not saying that Yao doesn't need more toughness. But he is not that type of player. Forcing him to be something he is not will only hamper his development. A good coach is one who recognizes his player's strengths and weaknesses and tries to maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses. I think Rudy was trying to foster natural growth in both Yao and Francis without forcing them to be players they were not. I agree that he might leave the reign too loose. But the basic philosophy is correct. As I've always said, asking Yao to gain (and hold) low post position all the time might not be the wisest thing to do. JVG should let him initiate some offensive sets at the high post.
Yea, you pretty much summarized the Princeton Offense right there...the day that we drafted Yao Ming, I was SURE the Tomjanovich would institute something similar...the first two the Rockets do to an extent, but the third is where the key is. Bring your center out and it opens up the floor for cutting guards...
Really? I feel that defense requires physical training, technique (stance), and communication system that each player must do. Man-to-man is very difficult, sure. Especially on a physical level. But... ...offense on the other hand can get quite complex. More so the PO! There are positions, angles, fakes, picks, rolls, screens, cutters and numerous sets that a team must learn like the back of their hand. This requires much more of a cerebral part of a player, than the physical aspect. This is why we hear about "smart basketball" and "dumb basketball." One type of team uses one-on-one ISOs. One uses a team scheme. Now, there are many types of offense that are used throughout the league that differer for each other. And there are mixes of each. But the mere fact that a team CAN if they chose to run a PO/or Triangle, or pick and role system is in my opinion much more difficult to learn than an ISO based system. And, if they are able to learn such a system tells me quite a bit about the players (IQ) on that team. And over-all, depending on the complexity, these types of offense can be more difficult to learn compared to "defense." Generally speaking. Both (offensive and defense) are physical. But the PO is physical and cerebral. That sounds like an excuse for bad shooting. You do know that teams have used offensense that required more motion, and at the same time were able to play a hard nosed defense as well? It has been done. Please don't give our team an excuse to feel sorry for them. Rudy used to do that all time time. And look where it got him!
Tomjanovich wouldn't have implemented the PO if you put a gun to his head. He was set in his ways (predictable ball).
I hear that.... I think ppl don't realize that defense and offense aren't mutually exclusive in that a tough defense (and we're talking Van Gundy's here) is tiring to play, and leads to a more tired player. And I don't care who you are or what offensive set you run, a tired player is a tired player. If DavidS gives me an example of a team which played well both ways (non-sexually) and I'm sure there ARE examples, the team probably was deep. And this scenario doesn't happen very often. I for one can't think of an example, and a reason might be that a team who scores well often times has a lackluster defense because they don't need a good one. Anyhow, back to the point -- (what was it anyways?) the relatively fewer fast break points of the Rockets this year (2 against LA) could be attributed to this. I don't know, based on what I've said above, if a tiring offense like the Princeton would be ideal in this situation. I think a more conservative inside-out three guard half-court would be better, and would get our shooters the ball more regularly on the line. As for learning a new offense, teams tend to pick up a new offensive scheme pretty readily as long as it differs significantly from the current set. Otherwise, the players tend to revert back into thier older offense (a la Rudy Tomjanovich instituting a so-called 'motion offense' after Ming's arrival, that reverted into an ISO with a couple setup passes), which comes so naturally to them. Great discussion we're having here btw..
You mean the offense that shot 44 percent and scored 94 per game, compared to this year's at 43 percent and 89 ppg?
