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The Jordan Comments...

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by c0r0na21, Aug 2, 2010.

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  1. Shaud

    Shaud Member

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    Why does LeBron James leaving to Miami offend you as a Basketball fan?

    I have no clue why his move would offend anyone who is not a Cleveland fan.
     
  2. Jacquescas

    Jacquescas Contributing Member

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    It's funny because everyone is angry because they perceived Lebron as taking the easy way out. People are upset because their team's chances of winning just went down.

    How can I fault a guy for going to the best situation? Maybe after the heat have won their 4th title I will start to get upset, but until they do more than 3peat, they are no greater than other great teams and I didn't fault the Lakers for signing Shaq, or the Spurs.

    Get over it, they won't win every title.
     
  3. dharocks

    dharocks Contributing Member

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    Dude, I don't give a crap about him leaving Cleveland the city or the team. And there's nothing in my posts to even suggest that. I've outlined pretty clearly in my posts why I feel the way I do, so if you really have no clue, I don't know what to say to you. I guess I'll just explain it again.

    LeBron has the talent and physical ability that you see once every two or three generations. If he refined his jumper and added a legitimate post game, he would be the best ever.

    He's good enough that if he were to do that, and if he went into the 'Jordan/Hakeem beast mode' in the playoffs, he's one of the very few players who could drag a team to a title without another star. And if he did that? There's a good chance he would become the greatest player of all time.

    Now that he's joined up with Wade and Bosh, he doesn't have to do that. To me, it's an admission that he doesn't WANT to do that. And even if he does add the post game and even if his jumper becomes unstoppable, he's given up on being one of those players to take a team to championship without another star.

    As a basketball fan, aren't you at all disappointed that that's not going to happen? Isn't it at all tantalizing to think of what could have been?

    It would have been an incredible thing to see.
     
  4. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    And Bird and Magic were both on stacked teams. If you want to argue that they had to get past each other then the Heat still have to get past some great teams to win. Folks keep saying "Magic didn't want to team up with Larry". What is the point of saying that is he is already teamed up with someone better than Larry? Wouldn't it make more sense to ask someone that wasn't playing alongside other star players, similar to Lebron's situation?

    When Hakeem went beast mode the supporting players still played great defense and still hit shots just like they had in the regular season, if not better. LeBron did go beast mode in the 08 series against Orlando. They lost because of defense and guys like Mo Williams and West shooting much worse in the postseason, something that happened in 09 as well (even though LeBron didn't go beast mode).

    LeBron can still be the alpha dog on the Heat. He is still their best player. Moses instantly became the alpha dog on the Sixers, even though Doc was there and was still one of the games best players, and he led them to the Finals the year before. But as far as this beating others idea, if he beats Kobe with Wade on his side how is that any different from Magic beating Bird with Kareem on his side? Didn't Kareem win Finals MVP the first time LA beat Boston for a title?

    How have you concluded that LeBron doesn't want to be the best player for Miami? Didn't he say he doesn't believe the 3 stars numbers should dip much, and that everyone can shine because the game will be easier now? Could it be that he would just prefer more help? If none of these other great players are discounted for winning with star teammates then why should he? Because he chose them as opposed to management? Why isn't Hakeem considered the GOAT then if it's all about winning without another star?
     
  5. Steve_Francis_rules

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    As a basketball fan, I'm not at all disappointed. And rather than taking the easy way out, I think he has put more pressure on himself. In Cleveland, there were always the folks who would defend his failures saying that it was because he had bad teammates. Now in Miami, there are no excuses. He is the best player on the team that will be expected to win the championship every year for the next 6 years.
     
  6. dharocks

    dharocks Contributing Member

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    Maybe. Wilt, for example (another player criticized for his lack of a killer instinct). Not Wilkins, because in my opinion, having a career like 'Nique's is the worst-case scenario for LeBron. With his talent, he should be better than that. And look, I've argued that the Magic/Bird comparisons are unfair, because they had better teams than LeBron.

    But Jordan and Magic are the guys who shared their thoughts about what LeBron did, and they also happen to be all-time greats. So that's the comparison we're using.

    True. I've argued that LeBron didn't have a great supporting cast, and had he stayed, Cleveland should have upgraded. You might argue that they had trouble bringing in supporting players due to the uncertainty of LeBron's future with the team, but we'll leave that alone.

    Hey, if it happens, I won't denigrate the accomplishment. I think he will be their best player. There's not really a HUGE difference in situations if Wade/LeBron beats Kobe vs. Magic/Kareem beating Bird. I'm not saying the accomplishment is diminished. I'm speculating about the mindset of the respective players.

    It's not about being the best player for Miami, it's about being the best player he can possibly be. THAT'S where my problem with this lies. If he had stayed in Cleveland, big fish in a small pond, in order to win a title he would have NEEDED to refine his game. He would have NEEDED to be the best player he can be. And I think that's what he shied away from by choosing to go to Miami. With Wade and Bosh, he just needs to be the LeBron he's been the last few years. He doesn't NEED to take his game to another level. And hey, it's his prerogative. If that's what he wants to do, that's what he wants to do. But I think it's disappointing, as a basketball fan.

    Maybe he still will reach his full potential. And if he does, great (for him anyway; the rest of the league is *****ed if that happens).

    I don't think his future accomplishments should be diminished. I don't. I don't think it's all about winning without another star, what interests me is the evolution that LeBron would have had have to gone through to do so.

    And by the way, Hakeem really should be more highly rated for what he accomplished in 1994, in my opinion.
     
  7. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro
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    if he did this and that he could be this

    dude averaging 29 7 8 isn't enough

    dude averaging daman near 40 on Orlando isn't enough

    do you understand his individual numbers are already historic off the charts, do you want him to go chamberlain and average 50?
     
  8. dharocks

    dharocks Contributing Member

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    I'm not really talking about it from a psychological or expectations perspective though... I think, simply put, it will be easier for him to win a title in Miami than it would have been in Cleveland. I think with his talent, it would have been possible for him to win in Cleveland without another star. But it would have been essential that he take his game to a higher level. Now, with the team that he has, I don't think that's necessary. And I don't think it's going to happen. That's what disappoints me.
     
  9. dback816

    dback816 Member

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    So you want him to average 50 and shut down Howard when playing Orlando ?

    Your expectations are comical.
     
  10. dharocks

    dharocks Contributing Member

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    It's not enough to win a championship with the supporting cast he had in Cleveland. That said, he's 25! Do you think he's reached a point where he can't get better? I don't! I look at him and I see a guy with HISTORIC potential. As in, better than Jordan, better than Magic, better than Bird, better than ANYONE. Does it put me in the wrong that I would like to see that if it happened?

    If we're going to talk about it from a statistical perspective, I think that if he continued to improve his jumper and developed a refined low-post game, he could average 35+ ppg, with a ridiculous number of FTAs and a FG% in the upper 50's. I really believe that. I'd love to see it!
     
  11. dharocks

    dharocks Contributing Member

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    Nope, didn't say that. With a slightly better supporting cast, he wouldn't have had to have done that either. But he definitely would need to continue to improve.

    You're right that my expectations of him are, or rather were, ridiculous. But that's because his TALENT is ridiculous. His POTENTIAL is ridiculous. I had higher expectations of him than I would have had for any player in the last, oh, 30-40 years. Because how often does a player with the ability to reach, or even exceed those expectations come along? Once every 30-40 years?
     
  12. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro
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    the only thing that's missing from Lebron's game is a kobesque, jordanesque jumpshot to close out games, which in all fairness you've alluded to
     
  13. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    Just because he is playing alongside another great player doesn't mean he can't get better, or be the best player on the team, or lead them to titles. If anything, it will relieve some pressure off of him. The same way pivots like Kareem, Shaq, McHale and Gasol removed pressure from Magic, Bird and Kobe by being great inside scoring options, or how Pippen relieved MJ from having to set up the offense and defend folks. No one else is doscounted for playing alongside great players. If it's ok for Magic to win all of his titles with Kareem, then it's ok for LeBron to win some with Wade (if ti happens).
     
  14. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    Do you realize if the Cavs could have defended Howard like LA did, and had long defenders like LA did, and a PG that was actually hitting everything like LA did, then Cleveland would have beaten Orlando? LeBron had an all-time series against Orlando. He played better than Kobe did against Orlando. He wasn't the reason they lost that series. You keep saying "elevate your game". Find me 5 playoff series from the last 10 years that were better than what LeBron did against Orlando.
     
  15. bloop

    bloop Member

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    Sorry but this post implies a cursory understanding of that era. The guy Bird (and Jordan) had to go through was Isaih Thomas not Magic. And that Pistons team was constructed very differently than either Showtime or Bird's Celtics. Talking about either Bird or Jordan during Jordan's time in the league without Detroit is like discussing WWII while ignoring the Soviets.

    As for Jordan. When Jordan left Pippen was immediately argued as the best all-around player in the league and did **** that Jordan used to do like win the allstar MVP and lead his team to 55 wins. Obviously Pippen was NOT the best player in the league. It proved to be Hakeem. But that year Pippen's led team was better than like 25 franchises. Can you say the same about either Bosh or Wade this year?

    Also it's stupid to act like you're discussing Jordan and not mention Rodman who was better than Bosh and the best defensive player and rebounder of not only his time but the current era as well.

    So... some of Jordan's criticisms are bull**** considering Rodman, Jordan and Pippen are better than James, Wade and Bosh. Kareem, Magic and Worthy are definitely better than James Wade, Bosh. Mchale, Parish and Bird are probably better than James, Wade, Bosh (I seem to remember Jordan once saying that the Celtics 3 were the best trio ever at the time). So to beat the dead horse, yes all those guys: Jordan, Bird, Magic all had help. Other epic guys of the time period like Isaih and Dr J had less help (but still a metric **** ton more help than Lebron in Cleveland... in the form of MOSES, Dumars etc).

    But then again none of them bailed on their hometown team to try to chase rings and beat Bill Russell's record either... so some of the hate is well deserved. I'm on both side on this one. Lebron has been enough of a douche to b**** about if you're the type to get your panties in a bunch about **** like that but you can also b**** about Jordan's hypocrisy as well...
     
  16. c0r0na21

    c0r0na21 Member

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    I agree with this...too many ppl think he did it by himself.
     
  17. ApuN

    ApuN Member

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    Why should LeBron be held to some imaginary BS standard that nobody else has or will be held to??

    The guy tried for seven years in Cleveland and it didn't work out. It really is a lack of understanding of NBA history and basketball in general to come up with some nonsensical bull sh** that somehow "LeBron can do it by himself".

    He cant. How can you be a fan of watching somebody fail year after year. If the guy could do it, he would have done it. Cleveland was never going to get the type of guys that will get you over the top. If they could, it would have happened already.

    You cannot win a championship with a bunch of second rate players. It is a myth and I repeat A MYTH that Jordan/Dream/Magic etc., "did it alone"

    You haters are unbelievable. When he lost last year every body called him a quitter. When he lost this year everybody called him a quitter. But yet non-fans such as yourself wanna wack him because he wants a ring.

    If LeBron can live without "being the man" why cant you??
     
  18. c0r0na21

    c0r0na21 Member

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    I also agree with this, it is about winning rings and if there's a chance of getting stars like that to help why not... and yes I will also be rooting for the HOUSTON ROCKETS to kick there ass as well.
     
  19. goodbug

    goodbug Contributing Member

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    Come on, Gasol/Pippen is comparable to Bosh, but Wade included? Yep, right.

    LeBron deserves all the credits if he could win with Bosh. But once Wade is in that formula, it has to be discounted.

     
  20. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Contributing Member

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    him and bosh will still be a tandem once wade breaks down at 31-32 and starts declining. so you'll have your chance at seeing a lebron-bosh tandem being the best 2 players in 2-3 years.

    and @dharocks,

    lebron already went beast mode in the playoffs the last 2 seasons. he had what, 2 mediocre games at most in the last 2 playoff runs. the cavs still didn't advance. the guy wants to win. the cavs have failed at getting all-star players around lebron: all-stars are guys who actually can still perform at the same if not better level in the playoffs. lebron doesn't see the cavs getting anybody with all-star capabilities in the near future so he bounced.

    ferry should have traded for amare instead of jamison and lebron would have been locked down for the rest of his career. that was the cavs' biggest mistake: choosing jamison over amare.
     

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