1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

The 'Jim Crow' Injustice of Crack Cocaine Continues

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by GladiatoRowdy, Jun 25, 2010.

  1. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    Neither of those is a great example of effectively regulated businesses.
     
    #21 GladiatoRowdy, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2010
  2. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,194
    Likes Received:
    15,354
    But they are perfect examples of what idealized representations of business look like when they leave Adam Smith's drawing board and enter the real world.

    The type of archetypal business environment you speak of has never existed anywhere in the world ever. Certainly your talk of preventing underage drug abuse sounds kind of odd when placed next to current underage alcohol and tobacco use rates.

    Maybe if you want to make grand gestures of social engineering, you can fix that model environment so that it operates like you claim it should before jumping into the more addictive/damaging drugs.
     
    #22 Ottomaton, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2010
  3. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    Actually, the rates of teen use of tobacco and alcohol were drastically affected when the "We Card" program started in the '90s. Teen use of tobacco dropped by 25% and use of alcohol dropped by 50%. The rates of teen drug use of mar1juana are half what we see in the US compared to Holland, where mar1juana is tolerated.

    Right now, minors report that it is easier for them to get illegal drugs than it is for them to get alcohol because of the program mentioned above. If we took it seriously and had severe, escalating penalties for providing drugs and alcohol to kids, I think we could make a major impact in rates of teen drug use.

    I don't need an "archetypal" business environment, all I need is the reality of a regulated market. When it has been tried with drugs, it has been effective.
     
    #23 GladiatoRowdy, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2010
  4. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,194
    Likes Received:
    15,354
    Yay not tolerating drugs! Proven in the real world to be more effective at preventing drug use!

    But pointing at Europe is, for the same reason that we can't look at Switzerland, and extrapolate that every house in the US should be required to have a machine gun to lower gun violence.

    Fundamentally, there is a difference between the US, with large African-American and Hispanic ghettos and poverty and a monochromatic ethnic population in a unified social state.

    If every house in the USA was required to have a machine gun, gun violence would go way up. Again, correlation doesn't equal causation.
     
    #24 Ottomaton, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2010
  5. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    No, a system tolerating sales of mar1juana has shown in the real world an instance of mar1juana use that is half what we see in a country that arrests nearly a million people a year for drugs.

    Certainly, there are differences, but those differences are not enough to explain a level of teen drug use that is half of America's and lower than its European peers as well.

    I am looking at a situation where the biggest difference in variables is a prohibitionist system against one that is tolerant of adult use of mar1juana. A 50% lower rate of teen drug use shows me that they are doing something right and the most visible difference is the decriminalization of mar1juana.
     
  6. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,194
    Likes Received:
    15,354
    So then you are in favor of a machine gun in every house on the basis of the Swiss gun statistics?
     
  7. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    You haven't provided any Swiss gun statistics, so I don't know what you are talking about.
     
  8. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,194
    Likes Received:
    15,354
    The salient facts are thus:

    All adult males in Switzerland are required as part of military service to keep a loaded assault rifle in the home. Swiss gun death rates are roughly 1/20th on a per capita basis lower than the USA. Their per captia murder rate is also well below the European average.

    Therefore, one can conclude that a law requiring everybody to keep an assault rifle in the home would vastly lower gun deaths.
     
  9. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    6,027
    Likes Received:
    439
    This is a poor way to employ statistics. Users ≠ dealers. What point is being made here? What surveys? "Most"? What kind of "crack raps?" Dealing? Using? Why is race being thrown in so readily if it's just about the fairness of penalties for the different types of the same drug?

    When articles start this way, I have a hard time following through as the method of logic doesn't appear trustworthy... whether they have something interesting to say or not.
     
  10. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    In that case, you are ignoring the single most salient fact, which is that all adult males in Switzerland have, as part of military service, engaged in extensive education about guns. I would posit that the education is the causal link in their system.

    IMO, education is the causal link in the Dutch system as well. They are far more honest with their youth regarding drugs and drug use and have removed the "forbidden fruit" aspect, which encourages people to use drugs when they are young and the penalties are not perceived as being as harsh as when one is an adult. Still, the key difference between their system and ours is the policy of toleration of mar1juana use and, while you might not believe the link is causal, I believe that policy is a major part of their relative success with regards to teen drug use.

    The policy we have, prohibition, is the absolute worst way to deal with the issue of drug use and abuse in our society. This policy cedes control of some of the most dangerous chemicals in existence to criminal gangs and thugs. Criminals have no reason to refrain from selling to children, selling bogus or adulterated products, or using violence instead of the courts to solve disputes. We proved this conclusively during the '20s and '30s and have many of the exact same problems now with regards to drugs.

    You haven't given me a single good reason to believe otherwise.
     
  11. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    The point is that white people use powdered cocaine primarily while black people are more likely to use (and deal) crack. A "crack rap" is an arrest for crack cocaine, where a mandatory minimum sentence is triggered on 18 times less cocaine than the powdered form of the drug. This leads to massive racial disparities including the fact that low level crack dealers get incarcerated for as long as many white people who were violent criminals.

    The logic is there, you seem to have made the choice to ignore it.
     
  12. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,194
    Likes Received:
    15,354
    So to summarize, you think murders are the result of a logical thought process, and if we just educate people about weapons, we will prevent people from wanting to kill others? Because I'm reasonably sure that in the USA, even though we don't have the same level of mandatory education about guns, most people realize what is going to happen when they point the gun at someone else and pull the trigger.
     
  13. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    I believe that education about things that are dangerous tends to reduce accidents that can happen with dangerous items. Whether those items are guns, drugs, or cars, I believe that statement is valid.

    The problem is that many, many people don't know how to handle a gun, to check whether the safety is on or off, how to check for a chambered round, etc. That level of education will definitely reduce gun deaths.

    Similarly, a (pardon the pun) high level of education about drugs could be mandated in a regulated system, to acquire a license to purchase. I would suggest that this education should start before a person can purchase tobacco products. The classes would cover addiction, the physical affects of the substance on the body, and the treatment options that are available to the user. Honest education is the best way to deter drug use.
     
  14. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,194
    Likes Received:
    15,354
    Except the difference in death rates is attributable to the difference in murder rates, in which case, learning to check the safety and properly chamber a round is probably not going to reduce people's ability to murder those they choose to murder. If anything, it'll increase their proficiency.
     
  15. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    59,079
    Likes Received:
    52,748
    The point is crack is much more dangerous to due it's cheap price, short intense euphoric high, simply manufacturing process, and the immediate desire for more of the drug. The prior sentences guidelines of (est) 100 to 1 is ridiculous -- 18 to 1 is a great improvement. Making cocaine and crack penalties equal on the weight of the drug alone is not an improvement.
     
  16. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    This is where your analogy to the situation we are discussing breaks down. The primary purpose of a gun is to hurt or kill, where the primary purpose of drugs is to change the mental state of the user. When people are educated to the proper uses of drugs and shown the consequences of problem drug usage, they will make better choices with respect to drug use. It is likely that 1.3% or so of our population will become addicted to drugs, so the responsible thing to do is make sure that their drug use will not kill them, they can get treatment when they need it, and they are more likely to seek out help rather than committing crimes to support a habit.

    Our current policy is akin to throwing gasoline (prohibition) on a fire (drug use and abuse in our society).
     
  17. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    Crack exists because it is a portable and easy for a dealer to measure or discard. Crack exists directly because of the drug war and in a regulated market, a tiny number of people would use crack. Don't believe me, look at history. When people were able to get legal alcohol after 1933, very few people resorted to "bathtub gin" and other concoctions that were likely to make you blind or kill you.
     
  18. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    59,079
    Likes Received:
    52,748
    Sorry, you can't compare crack to prohibition era alcohol.
     
  19. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,194
    Likes Received:
    15,354
    The analogy works fine. Creating a false dichotomy is only your way to try to back out of being confronted with an uncomfortable truth. The fact that one is a weapon and the other isn't is completely irrelevant to anything we've been discussing at all.

    In both instances, the use is a result of a biological urge rushing up from the mid-brain, as opposed to a cognitively coherent train of logic. A crack head doesn't sit down as a teenager and write a business plan to become a crackhead, no matter how many drug education classes they've attended. And the more addictive the drug, the more capricious and random the urge and the less it has to do with thought that might be swayed by "education".

    The sudden rage that you fly into that causes you to kill someone is very much akin with the overwhelming urge an addict feels when they need drugs. It is also like the sudden urge that pedophiles get when they see a little boy, even though they know that by acting on the urges they are chancing a very long time in jail.

    A logical process would have you not murder your wife, not stick that needle in your vein right before you are supposed to go to work, and not touch that little boy's junk. People know that showing up to their job on the nod won't go over well, but they do it anyway.

    All of these very reptilian urges are impervious to logical thought. They are the same sort of reflexive reaction a crocodile makes when you dangle a chicken leg in its face.
     
    #39 Ottomaton, Jun 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2010
  20. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,194
    Likes Received:
    15,354
    Richard Pryor of the flaming hair would like to disagree.
     

Share This Page