Even if you do not trade them, other teams are throwing max contracts at them, it will get interesting for sure..... OKC had to go through that, I am sure, the Houston Rockets cannot keep everyone forever.
Sure. I don't want either traded. Cam has severe deficiencies in things like ball handling and doesn't have the quickness and balance of Green. He has strength and catch and shoot ability on Green. Perfect guy to play off Green and Sengun.
We need both players…Jalen cannot do anything when he is doubled…you always needs TWO STARS and shooters to win in the NBA
Because he is questioning the coaches in a public forum, when he was playing like ass, with ass body language. Thank goodness he got some foot in ass, because he has absolutely flipped the script post-ASB, as I always hoped he would.
so, I listen to the NBA commentariat: you need a Big Two or even a Big Three to win in this league. The Rockets currently have a Big Zero with a couple of maybe-s, one big and one guard. NBA commentariat: the Rockets need to get rid of one of their maybe-s! Why???? That’s beyond stoopid…
Let's be honest, you were by far one of the most pessimistic ones about Jalen. "Out of the league in a few years"? That's harsh. And your response to @xaos isn't to just admit you were wrong... Rather it's to drag it out further into needing more proof than anyone else on the planet till next season and reminding us what we already know that he was having a bad season. The question was whether he'd turn the corner. Of course he was having a bad season but not so bad that someone is 100% sure he'll be out of the league in a few years. Trust me man, this is not going to look like a better prediction next season. Jalen will have added more muscle and sightly improved his 3PT shot. He's going to have experience on the defensive side and a stable roster/chemistry/coaching system, first time ever. The prediction is just going to get worse, better just jump on the bandwagon and have fun with us from now. Everyone welcome. It is understandable that people were cynical but it's time to move on now.
I said I overreacted but its not like I came to a rash decision about him after a bad game or two. He played like **** for a LONG time. Players who make everyone on their team worse do not typically last long in the league. I was wrong about him and I fully admit it. So the big question now is since Jalen has now done his annual turning the corner after the all-star break, will he finally break that pattern next year and play well the entire season?
That's a question that honestly is for a small minority. For me he should have been coming off the bench and taking half the shots the past 2 seasons (similar to Kobe/T-Mac), we would have developed a better player. His efficiency would have been way higher and then people would understand exactly how raw a player we drafted. It's expected for a HS-level player to struggle their first two seasons. Green's first two seasons were particularly difficult and bad even when compared to his peers on lottery teams. I bet the story will be: he had two dogsh*t seasons under a dogsh*t culture/coach/PG and he didn't develop well at all in those 2 seasons. It took only 60 games for the new coach to kick out his bad habits accumulated over half a decade and to install new good habits. After that, he just started developing normally as you would expect for a player his age. His 4th season started better than any of his other seasons because the experience, culture and stability around him carried over from the previous season since the Rockets had decided to start winning. We probably see a slight improvement in his 3PT shooting, passing and FTA next season - which will allow him to mesh well with Sengun who will also have improved his 3PT shooting slightly.
The Rockets are not desperate enough to win a title this or the next two years to worry about this "dilemma". The Rockets traded Capela to appease Westbrook because they knew that for that playoff run, it would make a difference on the margins to get Westbrook going as a starter. Regardless of what happens, Sengun really needs to work on his shot. Plain and simple. Nobody wants him to become Ryan Anderson or Channing Frye, but everyone understands that there are lineups where they need to space out the floor better to exploit matchups, etc. So we'll see first and foremost how much Sengun will improve as a viable threat, and how well he improves on Defense which is probably more important overall. To get out and run more, you've gotta be able to scramble a bit more on defense, and not constantly be dropping back. Again... regardless of Jalen Green, Sengun has to improve defensively. He made strides this season at the beginning of the year, but as the season went on, he again showed that he struggles to defend the way a team that wants to push the pace needs to defend. In the modern NBA if you want to get out and run, you have to make defensive plays further out. It's just that simple. The Rockets don't have to choose between Sengun and Jalen yet... at least basketball wise. Contractually, that's a different argument. I do believe there is a potential locker room issue if you extend one, and not the other. I wouldn't be entirely shocked if you extend one and not the other that you'd then start hearing about the other guy going to the Rockets to ask to be traded.
I'm getting almost as annoyed by some of the 1-loss-later gloating from Sengun stans as I was about the knee-jerk "Alpi holding Jalen back" reactions to his hot streak. I have been, at times, skeptical about both players, and at his lowest points this season when the bad games were really piling up, downright pessimistic/fatalistic about Green. But at this point, I think we can say both have shown the ability to do special things this season and both are worth another look--together!--next season. Stop trying to turn this into a zero-sum game. They are teammates and they clearly don't see each other as competitors for a roster spot the way some of y'all see them. I doubt the front office does either.
Have to remember with Cam that he is only 19. What he's shown at that age is pretty rare, and the production goes along with loud tools, even though the IQ is still an issue. I have always said that I don't think he has #1 option upside due to his lack of playmaking potential, but I still would not give him up unless I was getting a star player back. If he can by taught how to play well off the ball he could still become something along the lines of "best third option in basketball" and he has plenty of defensive potential as well.
Jalen can't be the engine of a serious contender. His forte is going to the ft line much easier than others due to his agility, first step and pace but officiating in this league is abysmal and they will not call those fouls in the playoffs. They are not even calling them in the reg. season. Secondy he has mediocre handles which makes him easy to guard. They will double him get the ball out of his hand or force turnovers. He can't be Harden. He will always need a Batman. Us trading Sengun makes sense only if we can bring in someone better than Sengun. Top 20 player and he can't be over 26 because he can't be out if his prime while we are challenging for everything. Our options are very limited because a 24-25 year old top 20 guy will not come here. Tatum, Doncic, Sga, Ant, Booker, Fox which top 20 dude will come here? Nobody. What we need to do is we either fully trust Sengun and trade Green for a consistent sharpshooter or wait for them to build a deadly 2 men game.
Apologies in advance for the long post. It's not an either or thing. No doubt, the way to maximize Sengun's numbers/effectiveness and the way to maximize Green's numbers/effectiveness are not the same. But that doesn't mean that they can't play together. The Rockets have to figure out the best approach that maximizes the entire offense, not just Green or Sengun. Sengun likes to work in the post or on the elbow. 63% of his made field goals come from within 5 ft of the hoop. The bulk of Sengun's assists also come from the post or elbow. The NBA closed the Court Optix website that showed assists by zone, so I don't know of a good place to get those current numbers. I do know that the last two years, the vast majority of Sengun's assists came from the post or elbow. He was much less effective from the ft line and even less effective from above the break. Based on observation, that still seems to be the case. As good as Sengun is in the post, the downside is that him being in the post allows the opposing center to sit at the rim and contest drives by Green, Thompson and Whitmore. Green has amazing speed and no defender can stay in front of him. Green's jumpshot is streaky. When he's shooting it well and feeling good about his shot, then he can hit a bunch of 3s. When he's not shooting it well and not feeling it, then he can misfire on shot after shot. Green, like most scorers, seems to do much better when he can get a couple of scores at the rim and then start shooting 3s. When he's unable to get to the rim and his offense is reduced to just shooting 3s, he tends to misfire a bunch. So, does Sengun have to become a good 3pt shooter in order for he and Green to both be effective? The short answer is no. First of all, even if he started shooting a good percentage from 3, it would have to be at a high enough volume to cause the opposition to change their defense. He could shoot 40% from behind the arc, but if he's only attempting 2 or 3 per game, then it's not going to change the way that teams play us. The benefit of his man sitting in the paint would outweigh whatever we get from his 3pt shooting. The primary reason that everyone wants Sengun to become a 3pt threat, is so that his defender can't sit at the rim on every possession. Well, there's other ways to do that besides being a good 3 pt shooter. If Sengun can start getting assists from the high post or even better, above the arc, then the opposing center is going to have to come out and play him. Watch Jokic throw passes from above the arc. If you leave him there with an unobstructed sitelines, then he's going to pick you apart. When Jokic is out top, he gets teammates easy shots near the rim.. Sengun has very good court vision, no doubt about that. You don't have good court vision from one spot on the floor. Court vision is court vision. He's just used to and more comfortable in the post with his back to the basket. There's absolutely no reason that he couldn't be as effective or even more effective from out top. He just has to start doing it and get comfortable with it. From a position above the arc, he'll be able to get more assists to guys going towards the basket. Currently, most of his assists are thrown out away from the rim because he usually has his back to the basket.. I'm not suggesting that Sengun be up high on every possession. He's a good post up player so you definitely want him getting those shots. He just has to pick and choose his spots to go down low rather than sitting down there on every possession. Watch Embiid, he's a load in the paint but he doesn't go down there every possession. He'll go out behind the arc which opens up driving lanes for Maxey and others. Embiid is drawing defenders because he can shoot the 3 ball but if Sengun can draw his man out because of his passing then that works too. There's other things that they can do to force the opposing center out of the paint. One thing that they'd already started doing prior to Sengun's injury, is to run a pick and roll above the arc with him and VanVleet. They did it some in the last game that Alpi played vs the Spurs. Wemby was dropping deep to shut down the lane. Once that happened, then the Rockets started running a high pick and roll above the arc. Sengun screened FVV's man and since Wemby was dropping so deep, VanVleet got wide open looks on 3 pointers which he nailed. After a couple of makes, Wemby had to come out to pick up VanVleet and that opened up the lane some. Wembanyama can cover a lot of ground, but when he came out to cover VanVleet and they kicked the ball behind him to Green, there was no way for Wemby to get back in time. Green, Thompson and Whitmore are great in transition. They should push the ball whenever they can as it creates easy hoops. They should keep pushing it as much as they can and if they can't get an easy transition hoop, then pull it out. That's where Sengun comes in. The ShowTime Lakers ran teams to death but if they didn't have the easy hoop, then they pulled it out and waited for the 40 year old Kareem to come post up. You don't need 5 guys to run a fast break and having a running game and a post up game aren't mutually exclusive. If Smith, Green, Thompson, Sengun, Eason and Whitmore all become lights out 3 point shooters, then great but that isn't likely. They just need to put themselves in the best positions to be successful. You can certaily trade Sengun or Green because they aren't a perfect fit, but whoever you get will probebly not be a perfect fit either. Rather than trying to keep changing out players, you just have to figure out the best way for the current guys to play together and get the team to execute. Bottom line is that we have 3 extemely athletic and explosive wing players. They excel in transition and going to the rim. We need to enable them to do those things and to maximize their chances. But if maximizing those opportunities means that we lose Sengun's postups, then you've greatly minimized the overall benefit to the team. The goal should be to maximize our uber athletes to add to what Sengun brings. That's when you're getting the most out of our players.
I will say if this new and improved Jalen is a starting point for him to only get better and more consistent from here on out then the Rockets 2021 draft will turn out to be the best in league history. Nabbing the next Kobe and the next Jokic in the same draft would be totally amazing and unbelievable yet it appears we may have actually done just that. Also, I do agree Silas was a poisonous stain on the entire team that impeded any and all growth from the young players during his time here.
A few quick thoughts in no particular order: - The pace is really more about injuries forcing Amen into the lineup where he can literally get the rebound and start a fast break on his own. Sengun and FVV as the primary playmakers have real impacts to our pace - you can argue guys like Jalen, Amen, Cam, Tari, AND Jabari all benefit from that style of play - its really only FVV, Sengun, and Brooks who are less effective here but because they control so much of the offense....agree that we should push to have a transition opportunity that leads to an "early offense" opportunity that leads to a more traditional set. - Udoka said he was operating Sengun out of the middle of the floor because it was easier for Sengun to find open players when he is doubled because it's an easier read to see where the defense is coming from. - I think one of my concerns with Segun this year is he has the ball in his hands more but at least last time I checked he was using those increased touches to generate more offense for himself which he is good at but part of what made me fall in love with his style of play is how he got others easy shots. I suspect he has started to call his own number more causing teams to double him more causing him to TO the ball more causing Udoka to play with where Sengun initiates from to give him easier reads. - I called this out in another thread - the "Sengun needs range" is less about how it opens the floor for others and more about how you have to surround a roster around Sengun if he doesn't have range. We are pushing it with Amen and Sengun on the court at the same time - everyone else has to be able to knock down shots effectively but if you give Sengun a max contract, you are now looking to surround him with shooters offensively and defensively versatile "chasers" around screens who can prevent Sengun from having to guard on the perimeter. Want to guess who the most expensive and rare players are on the market? You guessed it - those types of players. The new CBA puts us in a tricky spot having to construct a roster around Sengun if he doesn't have range OR defensive versatility because it's much harder to build out a 7 or 8 man rotation around hiding those areas of his game.
I think the transition game will be there as long as two of Green, Amen or Cam are on the floor (you can include Eason in here when he returns next year).. Neither Amen or Green are the Westbrook-like one man fast break. They seem to be much better when they have someone to run with them. Whitmore is a little different. At times, he can be the one man fastbreak though he can also turn into a run away train at times too. As for Whitmore on the break with a teammate, he's much more effective receiving a pass rather than making one. He just doesn't have the vision or passing skills currently. I agree but they are going to have to keep the paint open so either he starts picking up assists from out top or he gets less touches. At some point in time ( whenever that may be), we're going to want to move away from VanVleet but it's going to be tough to do. VanVleet is a good, not great 3pt shooter and he doesn't really give us much on drives but he's a huge safety net with his assists and ball security. Getting 8.1 assists with a 4.63 ast/to ratio is a huge benefit after several years of lower assists with an ast/to ratio below 2. If we start depending on someone else to be the primary ball handler, then we can't go back to where we were. 4.63 ast/to, may not be attainable but it can't be below 2 again either. Sengun is comfortable with his back to the basket because that's what he's always done, I get that. To be the biggest benefit to the team, he's going to be able to get assists from out top. Right now, the majority of his passes are going away from the hoop, mostly to 3 point shooters Think about how effective he could be if he was passing the ball to or toward the rim for high percentage shots. In that scenario, a much higher percentage of his passes turn into assists and it opens the lane for teammates. Win-Win. That's a valid point, but keeping the lane open is huge too. If you allow the opposing big to sit in the paint, then you negate much of the effectiveness of Green and Thompson and you take a big weapon away from Whitmore. If Sengun can operate out high and still get his postups, then there's no reason that he can't play with Amen, regardless of if he develops a shot or not. Thompson is a pretty unique guy. If you give him space, Amen is going to score. He's just really quick, extremely long and he's so fast off of his feet. Sengun passing from up top would create space for Thompson. As we've seen, when he has space, Thompson shoots a ridiculously high percentage. I'll take a 60% TS% on all two point shots if that's what it takes. The beauty of Thompson is that he doesn't need to camp out at the rim. He can flash to the rim and still get his points. The big thing for Amen is to develop his ball handling, specifically change of pace and being able to move side to side. If he does that they nobody will be able to stay in front of him on drives. That would also mean that you you can't leave him when he's behind the arc or you'll turn him loose on a drive to the hoop. Same thing that we saw with Green - even though he wasn't shooting well the first half of the year, he still drew the best defender and they didn't leave him open. Nobody wanted to allow him to get a full speed run t the rim. You are correct that the CBA will play a huge roll in our teambuilding the next few years. It could be a good news/bad news thing. If a bunch of our youngsters breakout then we likely won't be able to keep them all but I guess that's a good problem to have.
And you know what? They're both REALLY young and will only get better. Trading either of these guys this summer would be stupid. If there's some kind of absolutely unsolvable issue with contrasting styles of play, you can always trade one later.
