If they wanted peace, they would seek one state. They want two states so that the war can continue and they can scare their population into compliance. But they know all too well that if you tear down the walls and the borders and let the people of those states meete each other and know each other and see each other, they will be out of jobs. There will not be any reason to ask for money/weapons. There will not be any reason to make rash decisions in morally ambiguous situations. There will not be any reason to block coriander leaves from entering Gaza, and there will not be any reason to strike fear into Israelis. There will not be any way to justify land theft, rocket fire, etc. If a state government does not discriminate and it serves the interests of its own people, then it doesn't matter what it's called or who runs it, call it Israel or Palestine, let them all live in there, they will not care as long as they all are able to live without fear of attack, reprisal, starvation, death, poverty, and with dignity. Oh and before I hear the cliche response, yes I am fully aware that this kind of thing doesn't happen overnight and can not just happen on its own. But I am also not foolish enough to believe that these things have a chance as long as the ship is being steered in a totally different direction by those who have the most power to effect change in this conflict.
Finger-pointing one-sided demonizing anti-Israel propaganda by Mathloom once again. The veil of pseudo-objectiveness keeps dropping.
Respectfully disagree. I still think there can be a 2 state solution with the 1967 borders being the beginnings of the negotiations. We were so close: I agree that any item that can't be used towards building weapons should not be blockaded. I agree that the extremist settlers on the Israeli side only make matters worse when they grab land with knesset approval. Militants would still plan attacks on civilians though even if there was no blockade or new settlements. It's still in the Hamas charter to destroy the current State of Israel: Covenant of Hamas: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) If the Palestinians have a state of their own, they can dictate and serve their own interests. Not interested in cliches. It's time for forgiveness and cooler heads to rise up and unite.
Palestinians MIGHT be able to dictate and serve their own interests if they have their own states. There are many examples of people who have their own states which don't serve their interests. A look at Israel's proposal for a two state solution shows a Palestine which will spend the next century fighting poverty because their human produce has been anihilated, their natural resources re-appropriated, and their allegiance re-assigned to fight for the safety of an administrative border drawn up only with Israel's interests in mind. The proposal is a perfect example of why a two state solution can fall apart due to the stark imbalance of power in negotiations. Some things I'm sure can't be forgiven of course, as Israelis are well aware themselves.
With the current Likud government sure but that wont be true forever. I dont think you realize how close Olmert and Abbas were to a settlement. They had everything done. Agreements on borders with land swaps. An agreement to create a connection between Gaza and the West Bank. Dismantlement of most settlements that were non-contiguous, etc.. The problem was the settlement of Ariel which isn't cleanly on the border. Olmert told Abbas he couldn't concede on it because the right wing would go ballistic and that he'd given up too much as is (in the mind of the right wing). But it was a dealbreaker and the deal fell apart. Mind you this was far closer than Arafat ever got to a deal. Likud will never produce a fair deal for the Palestinians, that is 100% true. Kadima just had a primary with a new leader and I'm not familiar with his position on the Palestinian question. Assuming he is open on the issue, then there still might be a party that will do something fair. Again a big if, but not totally out of the question.
Yes, it's not hard to tell you would be part of the "forgive and forget" crew. What's new. How absurd and laughable that you would even act like this is a reasonable political statement. That's fine. So now they need to give evidence, forgiveness, land and graves. How much more do Palestinians have to give you till you forgive and forget? From what is being demanded of Palestinians, you would think that Palestine was a developed nation and Israel was two patches of land ridden with debt, death and destruction and surrounded by walls and facing a nuclear-capable power backed by THE nuclear power. Israel is so powerful it is capable of dealing with the almighty Hamas and launching an all-out war against Iran, something which some US experts have deemed extremely difficult. It is so confident, it is in fact eager to do so before US approval. You are also acting like you don't see the irony in someone on the Israeli side saying "forgive and forget", and no one is buying it. Do you really think peace is going to kill more people than are being murdered already? This adversarial method has not worked since day 1 back in the 1940's, why would there be an imminent solution without radical change? Seek peace. I swear, your life is no more valuable than the palestinians who die DAILY due to this conflict, you are just lucky that you were born somewhere else. How can you expect a future engaging palestinians peacefully when you have gone on record labelling them terrorists and reasons for breakdown in peace when you have seen the numbers of deaths with your own eyes?
<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.subber.com/embed.php?t=d288582b3f6a75d7a328d4169b24b331&l=1" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"> <p>"Magen David Adom (911), Hello. This is Meir""Quick! A deadly accident, brother!"</p><p>"A truck and bus!"</p><p>Quick, quick quick, brother!!!</p><p>It's a black day!</p><p>"Are there people in the bus?"-"It's packed, packed with people!"</p><p>The whole way I'm thinking, what happened to him?How is he?</p><p>Alive? Not alive?In a hospital? Not in a hospital?</p><p>People on the road stood and started to take the kids out.</p><p>Come on! Do Something!</p><p>But for my son, nothing helped.</p><p>"A deadly accident in north Jerusalem..."</p><p>"...a bus that was full of Palestinian children hit a truck and turned over."</p><p>"At least five children were killed."</p><p>"A few more of them were evacuated by Magen David Adom and the Red Crescent."</p><p>"Don't pretend to be righteous, these little Palestinian children,</p><p>they can be the future for more terrorist attacks."</p><p>"Stop bul****ting that everyone is human,</p><p>they're sluts, not human, and they deserve to die."</p><p>You wrote this... -- From my heart.</p><p>From your heart.</p><p>Tell me what makes you write something like this.</p><p>These little kids, they also do the terror attacks,</p><p>all the.... they throw rocks, cause accidents,</p><p>they can be the future of the next terror attacks.</p><p>We're talking about 4-5 year old kids, right?</p><p>Little kids, so what?</p><p>A' is a 10th grader, 16 and a half years old student.An Arab hater.</p><p>You tell me the truth, when you hear about a terrorist attack on kids,</p><p>a bunch of Palestinan kids die, what do you feel in your body,</p><p>are you happy or glad?-- I'm happy.</p><p>His friends hate Arabs, too.</p><p>A week and a half ago, there was an accident.</p><p>Five Palestinian children died.--Very good.</p><p>Over a month ago, he and hundreds of his friends swamped walls on Facebook,</p><p>with happy comments on the deaths of the five Palestinian children,</p><p>that burned to death in the bus accident.</p><p>Without hiding behind an anonymous keyboard, with no shame.</p><p>"Thank god they're Palestinian""Great! Less terrorists!"</p><p>It doesn't matter if you're left, center or right,</p><p>the fact that there are people who celebrate the death of others,</p><p>should make us stop for a moment and ask:how the hell did we get to this situation?</p><p>Welcome to the Pisgat Ze'ev High School,</p><p>we have 500 students,</p><p>I teach Citizenship, in grades 11 and 12,</p><p>they learn it for two years.</p><p>Rachel Damari Katz has taught citizenship for over a decade.</p><p>And each year she thinks the animosity in the class breaks new records.</p><p>"We have to kill them and it's a pity we didn't kill more"</p><p>I remember one of the girls saying,</p><p>"But there were women and childrenthere, what did they do?"</p><p>So he said: "It doesn't matter, these kids will grow up to be terrorists!"</p><p>Of course I heard it. And not only once, by the way.</p><p>I've heard it. Of course.</p><p>How many times did you hear the sentence:"I want to enlist to the Border Patrol,</p><p>to break the arms of Arabs"-- Of course I've heard this. I've heard this.</p><p>I've heard even more than this.Of course I've heard.</p><p>Less than 300 meters separate the high school in Pisgat Ze'ev</p><p>to the mall of this Jerusalem neighborhood.</p><p>Four years ago,</p><p>a group of youngsters caught an Arab there from nearby Shuafat,</p><p>and broke every bone in his body.</p><p>It wasn't the last time.</p><p>Are these topics discussed in class?--No.</p><p>Listen, this is a neighborhood in north Jerusalem,</p><p>we're close here to Shuafat, and Beit Hanina, and Beit Zafafa,</p><p>and they surround us, and Hizmeh.</p><p>Because the experience, the experience is negative, yes?</p><p>Then it doesn't lead to any sort of relationship.</p><p>But it doesn't really matter if the school is in north Jerusalem, Hadera or Rishon Letzion,</p><p>the students sound almost the same.</p><p>(Students who posted on Facebook): "They celebrate every death of a Jew who dies here,</p><p>so, I think it's fair there are two sides to the coin."</p><p>"The moment I'm given a weapon, I don't care, I....</p><p>Arabs, I don't care if they live here, don't live here,</p><p>I take them down.</p><p>I also have no problem killing innocent Arabs.</p><p>Revenge!</p><p>Avi Dadon, citizneship teacher:'It's only a bus of Palestinians, not so bad"</p><p>"It's a shame that more didn't die."</p><p>With these kinds of comments, that you get here in writing,</p><p>you get it much worse inside the class.</p><p>And the main difficulty, in my opinion, is</p><p>the education system builds on the citizenship classes,</p><p>as a system to eradicate racism.</p><p>It's the only area that I know that deals with the Arab-Jewish issue</p><p>the question of racism, the refugee problem,</p><p>the most urgent topics there are today,</p><p>are during those two hours a week in 11th and 12th grade,</p><p>It's the only point where you deal with this.</p><p>Why doesn't it happen earlier? Why doesn't it happen in 7th, 8th, 9th grade?</p><p>The fear to cope.</p><p>And this coping is becoming more and more difficult.</p><p>Allah hu akbar!</p><p>It's actually the generation that didn't grow up with these images in the background</p><p>became much more desperate than the generation before it.</p><p>A year ago, the Friedrich Ebert Stiftungpublished a comprehensive poll</p><p>conducted over 12 years.</p><p>It showed that a decade ago 30% of youth in Israel hoped that Israel will live in peace.</p><p>Today that number has dropped by half.</p><p>75% of all youth don't believe there is any chance for peace today with the Palestinians.</p><p>You and I, despite the fact that we're relatively young people,</p><p>we got to know different sides of this pendulum,</p><p>we knew situations where we at least felt,</p><p>that we were very close to peace.</p><p>The youth today is a whole generation of people,</p><p>that can't even imagine a situation where there will be peace here.</p><p>And when youth grows up in this kind of situation,</p><p>I don't see any reason why they should change their stance.</p><p>Dr. Eran Halperin is a social psychologist,</p><p>who focuses on societies in conflict.</p><p>He claims that the demonstrations of racism</p><p>are part of a mechanism that was destined to develop.</p><p>Israeli society in this case, is not worse,</p><p>but also not better,</p><p>than other societies in conflicts of this type.</p><p>In a reality where you are forced</p><p>to do very difficult things to the other side, many times,</p><p>and on the other hand, to sacrifice life, to recruit society for the conflict,</p><p>to do this you must use pysochological mechanisms,</p><p>that somehow help you feel the situation is normal,</p><p>in an abnormal situation.</p><p>And when something like this happens</p><p>like this situation of the bus and the kids,</p><p>it happens on a certain background, and in a certain context,</p><p>in a context where we have already de-humanized the other side.</p><p>And them as well, by the way, they're no different,</p><p>we're not worse or better than them in this issue.</p><p>So, there's no reason we should suddenly re-humanize them,</p><p>and treat them as humans, feel their pain and so on and so forth.</p><p>The big question is, if anyone is making an effort</p><p>to make it look different.</p><p>Or are both sides holding on tight to their prejudices and animosity</p><p>that never cease to rewrite themselves.</p><p>Death to Arabs!Death to Arabs!</p><p>Death to Jews!Death to Jews!</p><p>Just last year, after a decade in which the education system ignored the growing racism in it,</p><p>a new program was announced to address the issue.</p><p>The teachers we spoke to still haven't heard of it.</p><p>Maybe those guys, up there, have to make a decision,</p><p>that maybe there are more important topics,</p><p>that are called racism towards the Arab minority in the Land of Israel, in the year 2012</p><p>and it's time to deal with this phenomenon.</p><p>Death to Arabs!Death to Jews!</p><p>As long as there are not actions taken</p><p>in an, even you can call it, in an artificial way,</p><p>of bringing the two populations closer,</p><p>there can not be change.</p><p>Death to Arabs!Death to Jews!</p><p>"Anatot"</p><p>Ahalan.-Hello.</p><p>Last week we made such an attempt.</p><p>We drove with two settlers to a consolation visit </p><p>in the neighboring village Anata, from which the bus of children left.</p><p>Arik Vachnish from the settlement Adam, who hung a sign of support for the families</p><p>and Doli Yariv from Anatot</p><p>who gathered donations for the medical treatment of the injured children.</p><p>Despite these promising facts,the beginning wasn't opitimistic.</p><p>It's not a very friendly village,</p><p>I wouldn't go in there alone, without making sure that...</p><p>that we're coming back from there.</p><p>1.5 KM separate the settlement Anatot from the village of Anata, </p><p>A five minute ride, and it's a whole different world.</p><p>Ahalan.-Hi, nice to meet you.</p><p>How are you?-OK.</p><p>We are greeted by Abed Salame,</p><p>the father of Milad, who died in the accident, and his uncle Wahil,</p><p>a suicide bomber who was arrested before he committed the attack,</p><p>and after his release from jail became a peace activist.</p><p>We waited for 24 hours, sitting in the house, waiting</p><p>We don't know if he's alive or dead.</p><p>In the end they called us, and said Milad is among the dead.</p><p>Five years old.</p><p>Do you have a picture of him?-- Yes, I do.</p><p>Just a second, I'll get it.</p><p>In the Salame family's living room,</p><p>two settlers and a suicide bomber sit next to each other,</p><p>and complain about the road that they share every day on the way home.</p><p>Because after all the gaps are peeled away,</p><p>suddenly, you can hear much better.</p><p>Wahil: A man is a man.</p><p>A child is a child.</p><p>Maybe I don't like you,you are my enemy,</p><p>but we share one thing, that we are human beings.</p><p>I want to tell you, that I live in Anatot,</p><p>I'm a settler.</p><p>The moment we heard on the radio that there was an accident,</p><p>in my head, I thought it might be one of ours.</p><p>If God had missed by two seconds,</p><p>for sure a bus of the Binyamin regional council would have crossed,</p><p>So, i don't believe anyone in the settlements here, in this area</p><p>would think that it's great that these are Arab children.</p><p>Because tomorrow it's our children.</p><p>He'll be in heaven.--Thank you.</p><p>May Allah be mericful on the soul of your child, Inshallah.</p><p>May you know no more sorrow. Inshallah he will take care of your son.</p><p>Milad Salame was five and a half when he died.</p><p>Someone went to buy meat, and he came back a meatball.</p><p>He loved jokes, watching wrestling with his Dad,</p><p>and the jymboree (playroom) in Ramallah, to which he was supposed to go the day the bus turned over.</p><p>Tell another joke.--Another one?</p><p>Another joke.</p><p>On the devil?</p><p>A man went to the bathroom,</p><p>and started to say "In the name of Allah the merciful and the compassionate"</p><p>and then the devil pissed on himself from laughing so much.</p><p>More than 700 talkbacks full of happiness and glee</p><p>were posted by youth after this tragedy.</p><p>There's not much else one can say.</p><p>Responses. Concerning the claims by citizenship teachers on the level of studies</p><p>the Ministry of Education says:</p><p>"Views of students are influenced and mirror the views in all of the adult Israeli society.</p><p>Values of tolerance are taught to the children through core topics</p><p>such as "Homeland. society and citizenship" and "Life Skills",</p><p>which are taught in elementary schools and also through citizenship studies in high schools."</p><p>But, as you can see,</p><p>and maybe you should pay attention, Minister of Education,</p><p>your grade is without a doubt "failed".</p> </iframe> This was a recent documentary done by Israel's Channel 10 (subtitled in English). You can see a microcosm of the problem, with all the shades of grey. You'll see high schoolers telling reporters without a hint of shame that they celebrated when Palestinian children died in a bus crash, and you'll also see settlers going to grieve with the families. It's worth a watch (14.5 minutes)
Thank you for sharing this video. It's sad that these teenagers grow up in a culture that promotes so much blind hatred. As the social psychologist said about war and de-humanization. I'm ashamed to share the same religion as them. The part with the settlers sitting with the former suicide bomber was unreal. A man is a man, a child is a child. One day it could be palestinian children dying, the next Israeli. If we could just stop the hate. The question is... where do we begin? If kids are being taught to hate, then you're talking generations.
I don't blame Judaism for that any more than I do Islam or any other religion. It's also telling that the guy talking about the growth of racism in high schools and blaming the government for it...was an Orthodox Jewish guy (wearing a knit kippa - which is associated with the religious zionist movement). I also know racist atheists, for that matter. I went to a religious university for my MA (Bar-Ilan) and my Orthodox professors turned me on to modern literary criticism and deconstruction as well as Islamic philosophers from Spain (among other things) It doesn't pay to indulge stereotypes.
I went back and read this melodramatic post. I read the previous post as saying "some things Israel did cannot be forgiven", hence my comment that that attitude is not a way to start a peace process. In my opinion, to start a real peace process, you have to get over the fingerpointing at some point, or you will always fall back into a conflict situation. Why that triggered all the melodramatic crap in the post first quoted in this post, I have no idea.
The almost unanimous complaint I heard from Israelis was that they never ever wanted to live in Jerusalem. That city is slowly filling with crazies. Also the other thing I heard was the near unanimous criticism of the education system as a whole. To me this is the scariest part. For the first time, Israel's success is going to be dependent on a generation without immigrants and its looking pretty terrible.
Just to clarify, when I say some things can't be forgiven, I mean that the human psyche will not be able to overnight rid itself of the extreme amount of propoganda they have consumed. Going by what I have seen from media and schools, the "brainwashing" situation in that whole conflict is horrifying. Parallels can be drawn to the Nazi regime in terms of the TYPE of propaganda used to shift an entire population's mindset. Certainly, I hope that these feelings do not translate into physical violence, but who expects them to just forget what happened? Sometimes we may forget that we are dealing with people who have feelings and memories, and just like you and I they can not just let go of losing family, homes, entire villages, etc. Until both sides actually interact and get to know each other freely, they will always harbor the images that have been stamped into their minds, and there are physical walls to ensure that myths are not dispelled. It's a terrible situation.
I agree, as long as finger pointing is going on, a real peace process can not start. At the same time we must recognise that if both sides are pointing fingers, then both sides feel justice has not been served and their grievances have not been noted and will not be taken into consideration. Finger pointing is a cool word, but it doesn't quite grab the context of "you killed my daughter" or "you set my olive farm on fire" for example. That is some serious finger pointing, and it is going on all the time from both sides. Only those with the most power can steer this ship in the right direction. The problem with stopping the fingerpointing is that the TIMING of stopping it is very important, and only a truly independent third party could make a real decision of when is an appropriate time to stop noting grievances and start negotiating. If palestinians are blamed of finger pointing, israelis can be blamed for refusing to stop construction on disputed land. The list is endless. The only situation where both sides will agree to stop pointing is when both feel like they have been heard out. It is the wrong time to start a peace process. It is unfortunate IMO that they are now seeking a state. They think that they are doing the right thing, but I really believe that they have been in better position to negotiate in the past, and they will be in far better position as the world becomes more familiar with the refugee situation there. This is the perfect time for Israel to negotiate as many feel that they are perhaps stronger than they will ever be in negotiations. The Iran situation is swallowing a whole lot of attention as well I think. Unfortunately, we don't have time to waste in seeking the safety and security of these people. The cherry of the problem is that there is no independent state to mediate and the groups can not agree on an independent party/entity because the politicians have made a habit of polarizing everyone - lovers or haters of Israel/palestinians. How can anyone be deemed independent? Certainly, we can all agree that the US is by far the least independent state and therefore the least suitable, which is further complicating the problem. So yes, as I explained in my earlier post, they will not forgive and forget, but that's not my hope, that's an eventuality. Unless we shift the course of the relationship between palestinian people and israeli people, the pendulum will eventually swing in the other direction, and then the inverse finger pointing begins again. We can't keep playing into the hands of this 'vicious' cycle. The Arab Spring has really changed the mindset of people in the Middle East and I encourage you to study it. It is about humans coming together and combining each others stories to realize that there are more effective and less expensive solutions than are being advertised.
