It is important to understand why these people are doing what they are doing. I'm not advocating Creepy's position, just mentioning that just because the acts are despicable, it does not mean discovering why they are doing these acts is ‘justifying’ the acts. Maybe what Creepy believes is exactly what is the rational behind the murders.
as always, thanks for your ground-breaking "analysis," i never made the links and connections you have accusse me of...i didnt bring up any specifics, so please dont assume anything and put words in my mouth all i said was if you wanna condemn the symptoms of dictatorial rule, foriegn occupation, murder, brutality, and torture, then you should also condemn the aforementioned root causes, which nobody has done and then i asked hypothetically how you would act if you're father was tortured to death, you mother was shot and killed, and your sister was raped. and i asked if he could attach a figure or # to his claim that there were a lot of "f'ed up" muslims in this world? and also where are these muslims that he's talking about and who are they? that's all i said....thus, your interpretation was incorrect as usual
I'm afraid you did, slick. If you didn't make the connections I point out then what you say is not germane to the topic, lol. For example, why is having your family raped or killed germane to the thread? Further, you clearly, as I already stated and you failed to respond to, make a value evaluation when you label terrorists 'victims.' You draw the line between their actions and what was done to them - again clearly moving to justify their actions.
no i didn't, but you can repeat yourself all you want i was just making some points for jackfruit to consider and questions for him to answer
"i never justified anything...go back and read my previous posts you seem like a self-hating muslim, because all you're doing is blaming the victims..." Amazing. I could quote a raft of similar things you've "blessed" us with. You trot into the BBS, apparently without knowing anything about the history of the members here, and make just under 28 posts per day, consisting, at least in D&D, of just this sort of thing, or worse. You admit you've never justified anything, yet you feel no compulsion about saying to Jackfruit that he, "seems a self-hating Muslim," making wild assumptions about him, and a lot of other members around here of which you know absolutely nothing. And you base this after having joined on March 31st... all of 8 days ago. (insert roll-eyes here) You're well on your way to making yourself irrelevant. At some point, folks here will tire of the baseless tirades. You might consider, with all due respect, posting less, and thinking about what you post a little more. Keep D&D Civil.
Setting aside for a moment that the 9/11 hijackers did not have their families killed or sisters raped...of course it is good to analyze why people do what they do. Except he goes beyond being descriptive. He moves way into normative territory.
what are you talking about? nothing you've said makes any sense...i said jackfruit might be a self-hating muslim, because some of the things he said.....now what does that have to do with anything else i've said....i said i've never justified anything and thats true if you look at all my posts and not quotations that are selective or out of context, then you would realize that i always try to stick to the issues. however, somebody like hayes has attacked me personally on many occasions and i've refused to respond in kind and i've also asked him to stick the issues, which he hasnt done i commend you on your post, but your analysis is factually incorrect and being the person i am, i will even consider your recommendations, but i dont think i'll adopt any of them if you dont like what i say, you can add me to your ignore list ps notice that i didnt personally attack you even though attacked me
one last thing Deckard, why dont you make the same recommendations to hayes or yourself? he and you are more guilty of what youre talking about than i am just look at what he and what you've said on this page alone, but i'm sure you'll come up with some apologetic reason to justify your posts while at the same time condemning me and what i've said based on your own words, you're a hypocrite
These are the people Jackfruit is talking about. This was your response. Thus you are saying that the bombers, kidnappers, and beheaders are the victims (ie justifying their actions), despite your protestations to the contrary. You may not have meant that, but it is certainly what you posted, as evidenced by all of the responses you are getting.
his original statemnt was that there are "a lot of f'ed up" muslims in this world....this is an extrememly vague statement and i just asked him to be more specific....this is something that should be taken on a country by country basis so we can analyze the domestic situation and discuss the specifics....this is especially important because we live in a climate of xenophobia towards muslims
I do not understand why I have to quantify this. If you want a number, I'll give you a number. The number is 1. One crazy f'd up Muslim that kidnaps women and beheads aid workers is 1 too many. I think MadMax stated my position best. I just wish that these insurgents would do what they do in the name of Iraq. Then I would condemn them for the actions like most do and that would be the end of it. But these mofos don't do what they do in the name of Iraq, but they do what they do IN THE NAME OF ALLAH and that is what drives me up the wall. These people scream Allahu Akbar as they BEHEAD people. They invoke the name of MY CREATOR to do evil. Maybe you are not a Muslim and that is why you do not understand my position on this. When these people kidnap folks like Jill Carroll and they do it in the name of Allah, they are soiling the hands of 1.5 billion people in the world in their misguided actions. I told you earlier that I am not an expert on Islam and I stick to that. However, I will tell you what I do know. Islam does not teach its followers to kill the innocent. Islam does not teach terror. It is not the trait of a REAL Muslim to terrorize and kidnap and behead. I am a Muslim and I am a stand-up citizen. I want people to understand that me living an honest and peaceful life is a result of my Islam and not by me avoiding Islam. I want people to understand that when I pray, it brings peace into my heart and not hate. For those people whose shoes you want me to walk...I challenge them to legitimately use the dictums of Islam and the teachings of the Prophet to justify their actions. If those people are willing to use their nationalism as justification for their actions, then I have nothing more to say. However, if they want to use religion, then I want those people to open a Quran, to read the verses they use to justify their actions and to read the background. I want those people to read a non-biased account of the life of the Prophet to see what kind of life he led. Do not read the works of those whose intent is to villify Islam and by the same token, do not read the works of someone who obviously wants to present the Prophet in the greatest light possible. Bottom line is, I would not care if they would do what they do in the name of nationalism. However, as a Muslim, I refuse to have the blood of the innocent on my hands by insurgents doing what they do in the name of my faith and my creator. You were saying that I might be a self-hating Muslim. I want you to know that this could not be further from the truth. If I hated Islam, I would leave. If I was indifferent as a Muslim, I would be apathetic. It is because I love Islam and I value Islam that seeing it degraded and villified by fellow Muslims drives me up the wall. People need to know that good Muslims are the rule and not the exception. Insurgencies in the Middle East certainly do not help this.
Jackfruit, Thanks for your response and clearing some things up I just wish people would be so vociferous in their condemnations of dictatorial rule, foreign occupation, murder, brutality, and torture that are committed against Muslims by the US, Israel, and regimes that are sponsored bythe US like Egypt
although i resent you for comparing me with hayes, i'm glad i can provide you with some entertainment i'm also glad that my comments have urged others to participate more as well
Creepy, I really don't need to respond, because you're making my point for me. You condescendingly "thank" Jackfruit for going to more trouble than you deserved, by making himself, yet again, absolutely clear. (his point was already quite clear to anyone paying attention, but I enjoyed his reading his response, regardless) If you don't "get it," then I'm not going to waste my time making a comment to you when you pull this stuff. One of the things you might realize, if you had been reading this forum for awhile, is that there are those of us with a long history of gong back and forth in a rather heated manner, about things we feel passionately about. basso and I, for example, go hammer and tongs on occasion, but he's a great guy outside of his (in my opinion) demented obsession with approving all things Bush. Hayes and I have also had some heated dustups, for a very long time, but agree about a lot of things and, unlike basso, Hayes is far from a rubberstamp approver of all things Bush. He just happens to agree with the invasion and occupation of Iraq. We disagree on that. basso and I hold similar views on gay marriage, for example, but disagree on Bush. You keep making assumptions about members here based on a small quantity of information. Maybe if you slowed down a bit, and smelled the coffee, you'd have a more enjoyable time. Or maybe not. Keep D&D Civil.
thank you for your thoughtful response and i mean it and i also meant it when i was responding to jackfruit as well, i even sent him a private message thanking him....if you dont believe me, just go and ask him...im having a great time, thats why im participating so much i might have made one assumption about one person, thats it.....other than that i've never attacked anybody personally, although people have done that to me and have been quick to pass judgement on yours truly, i've stuck to the issues and i've politely asked others to do the same thing my whole point, which i think somebody else agreed with, is that we need to analyze the root causes of all these problems and not the symptoms and in all the hysteria this was lost thus, i think i've kept it pretty civil
Dude....you *know* you are in bad shape when Deckard calls you out like this He rarely has a bad thing to say about anyone (unless your initials are GWB) . and btw...he's right. btw x2.. Excellent post Jackfruit..I also enjoyed reading it..your position reeks of common sense...its refreshing.
