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The incredible transformation of Justin Brooks Verlander

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Yordan The Great, Jul 9, 2022.

  1. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn Member

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    And if his RPM’s are down bc he’s off the spider tack he can always get more sneaky about cheating when he gets more desperate.
     
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  2. The Beard

    The Beard Contributing Member

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    If Maddux had the same strike zone as everyone else, he would have still been good, but short of Verlander. Sorry, just the truth
     
  3. Tuckmose

    Tuckmose Member

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    The Spin is from the sticky stuff, his spin returned to his Detroit numbers.

    His numbers this year are nearly identical to 2011.
     
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  4. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

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    He earned that strike zone over the years. What I mean is he was dominant before that. But yes it became a joke and Glavine got those calls too. Couldn’t happen today.
     
  5. Tuckmose

    Tuckmose Member

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    obviously a gross overexaggeraton, but the late 90s were home to such gems like this:



    still the introduction of the computerized strike zone really changed pitching, considering the average strike zone looked like this prior to 2001:
    [​IMG]

    As for Maddux, here are his numbers from 2001 onward (please keep in mind these were his age 36 to age 42 seasons)

    [​IMG]

    That's a 3.80 ERA, 3.79 FIP over 1700 innings pitched, he churned out another 25 WAR in his twilight years as well.

    His strikeouts/9 dropped from nearly 7k/9 during his prime (age 25 to 35 sesaons) to 5k/9 though I don't know if thats the strike zone shrinkage or him just getting old.

    Judging by him keeping his walk rate about the same, he just got old.
     
  6. Yordan The Great

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    Glavine was worse, that scroogey to the right handed batter was always 3 1/2 inches wide of the plate being called a strike. The batter had no chance on those nights.
     
  7. Nook

    Nook Member

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    While that all makes sense, the Astros have already made certain “changes” to counter act what the league said.
     
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  8. msn

    msn Member

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    It's your opinion. They pitched in different eras, Maddux was dominant (as the other poster pointed out) long before umpires started licking the Braves' boots, etc. etc. etc. But it's still a compelling argument you bring up. My impression, having watched the guy far more times than I cared to, is that he would have made the adjustments and remained dominant. His talent and control were just other-worldly. But we'll never know.

    It's interesting, too: if the umpires were actually calling the strike zone instead of the strike zone plus four inches, it would have given our hitters a fair chance in the postseason. OK, so Bagwell is no Babe Ruth and Biggio is no Ted Wiliams. Maddux and Glavine weren't Koufax and Gibson, either. It would have been nice to see our boys have a whack at the greatest pitching staff of their time within the strike zone. But, we'll never know.
     
  9. luckyman76

    luckyman76 Member

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    I once studied the entire start history for Nolan Ryan long ago. It is so criminal how many 1-0, 2-1 games he lost and really he should be held in an even greater regard. Generally, an average game is around 4-3 so giving 1 or 2 runs is definitely a good outing. Why do I bring this up with Verlander? When he came here I think the key to unlocking him was tweaking but enabling him to do what he does best. Buy the downside. Yes, he likely gives up more solo shots. Who cares? A run here or there without walks or base runners is harmless. He dominates the entire game so he has supreme confidence and in turn the other team is demoralized when he is the starter. With the other pitchers it also sets the tone and it affects OBP and we know it from statistics. Bats that go cold over successive at bats tend to stay cold. Having your starters last deeper into the game cools the bats and spares your bullpen.
     
  10. Tuckmose

    Tuckmose Member

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    Easily the most underrated part of Verlander’s game is that he hardly ever walks anyone. For all the filth our home grown pitchers throw out there (except Urquidy), everyone on the staff still has walk problems, even if their stuff is good enough that they can clean up most of the messes they get themselves into.
    On the bright side, Javier, Valdez, and Garcia have all cut down on the walks this year, each losing at least 0.5 BB/9, even if all three give up more home runs. I guess Justin is rubbing off on the pitchers.
     
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  11. STR8Thugg

    STR8Thugg STR8Thugg Member
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    Thats awful but I still think the strike zone overlay isn’t consistently correct and varies based on batter and stance, etc. Some of those pitches were way outside regardless. That last curveball was about as far out of the zone as I’ve ever seen.

    What was up with the 2 random ones that were 100% in the zone, overlay or not? Lol
     
  12. IdStrosfan

    IdStrosfan Member

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    I could totally see MLB changing the requirements to 4IP.

    Or just changing the rule to " most effective or impactful pitcher in a win" without an innings requirement.
     
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  13. STR8Thugg

    STR8Thugg STR8Thugg Member
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    To illustrate my issue with the automated zone, take a look at the second bad call below:



    Obviously this is with older technology, but there is no way that should ever be a strike, in any situation. I don’t think that pitch actually clipped the zone, but even if it did clip the zone, those type of pitches aren’t strikes. That’s the type of thing that the automated strike zone won’t be able to differentiate and I hate that. Umps suck, but Robot umps screwing up calls will be exponentially more frustrating.

    It’s like how self driving cars are already safer statistically than humans, but there’s an idea that we need to make self driving cars 1000, 10000, maybe even 100000x safer to justify taking control out of the human’s hands. I don’t think the automated zone is good enough as currently constructed.
     
  14. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn Member

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    I doubt the 4IP would make a big difference. How many guys have a lead after 4 innings, don't pitch 5 innings, and the team never gets tied or trails the rest of the game. That can't be a particularly common thing- I bet if you had a 4IP rule instead of 5 IP rule it wouldn't change but 5 games a year for the totality of the team.
    I would be very interested to see what the- who was most impactful in the win would do. I would imagine any time you post a quality start type and your team wins that you would end up with the win. That's the kind of thing that could make a difference of 3 or 4 or 5 wins a year for some guys. 5 wins a year over a 20 year career is the difference between a 200 game winner and 300 game winner so that would be pretty damn impactful.
     
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  15. xcrunner51

    xcrunner51 Contributing Member

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    Yea, those pitches traditionally haven't been called strikes but by the rule book they're strikes. There's definitely gonna be unintended consequences with robo umps.

    Technically you could program the robo ump to not call those corner clipping pitches but by the books they're still strikes.
     
  16. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn Member

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    I haven't heard any of those complaints at AAA so my guess is that they "fixed" that if you truly think that needs to be fixing. It was a complaint that more or less went away after initial use.
     
  17. STR8Thugg

    STR8Thugg STR8Thugg Member
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    I've heard people like Jeff Passan say that, but I still don't understand how those are "by the book" strikes.

    Doesn't an actual strike have to traverse the strike zone over a reasonable portion, not just touch the very edge at the front or back of the zone? This isn't tennis. The purpose of balls and strikes is to give the hitter an opportunity to reasonably hit the pitch.
     
  18. Tuckmose

    Tuckmose Member

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    Thems the rules. As long as the ball hits any part of the 3-dimensional volume above home plate between a batters kneecap and the halfway point between the batters waist and shoulders, it’s a strike.
     
  19. STR8Thugg

    STR8Thugg STR8Thugg Member
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    That's just stupid, no matter how you frame it.
     
  20. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member

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    With robo umps I would imagine catchers will begin to set up way outside/inside to decoy the batter.
     

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