The Great Wall vs. The Dream

whoa... all of you guys saying yao would play hakeem to a draw? or that offensively they are the same? NO WAY!

yao is certainly getting better and surpassing even my own expectations, but let's not get carried away here...

yao is not quick enough to keep up with hakeem on offense. and hakeem has much more range.

hakeem would also deny yao post position and his hands were the quickest of any center (being top 10 all time in steals). he would frustrate the hell out of yao. hakeem had power and quickness. the only combination that can stop yao.

yao would get some easy baskets on put backs, etc... and he may score a few times from the post, but THAT IS IT.

hakeem would clean the boards, protect the paint, and blow by yao on offense.

we go a few years without great center play in the league and we start comparing yao to the best ever? it's a little early for that.

tho i might consider this comparison more if yao can maintain this level of play for a few more years.

 

Very well stated

 

I disagree, i think dream's supporting cast is definately better.

"on the way down"? yes. but not as broke-back as t-mac.

 

That is pretty low. That shows how much respect you have for Yao.

 

You are an idiot.

 

I think this is good that we can have this argument, because that mean both of them have to be pretty special players, and many franchises can't say that.

Every franchise has had good players, but special players only come along every once in awhile, and we've had two!

That said, Yao is just unfortunate to have came after the greatest sports figure in Houston, and play the same position! If Yao had played in Dallas, Memphis, Seattle, Golden State, Sacramento, Cleveland, well you get the picture.......he'd already be the best center ever in those franchises.

Yao needs more seasons, more playoff games, and some championships, before we're even approaching this topic, but if you need an answer today.....

Hakeem, freaking hands down, no questions asked (shouldn't be)

 

Thanks for the love for yao. You sound like Kenny Smith on the show, though.

 

Wow! This thread is really showing age of some of the people here...

If you did not witness Hakeem play, I feel sorry for you guys.

I love Yao. I loved Hakeem.

But if I had to pick one of those 2, Hakeem all the way.

Just think of it this way....

What weaknesses could Yao and his team exploit in Hakeem's game and vice versa?

Hakeem did not have any glaring weakness. There wasn't a single dimension of his game where the opponents would say, "yeah let's just give him that." OTOH, there are still things in Yao's game which can be exploited. It is far easier to deny Yao the ball. He is slower. You can expose Yao when moving latterly on defense. Yao would have trouble getting the ball in position to score against Hakeem. If Ben Wallace gives Yao so much fit I would hate to see what Hakeem would do to him.

And please dont bring up the "rules were different" excuse. If you had seen all 7 games of 94 Finals, you would know what I am talking about. They put 4-5 different Knick players on Hakeem every game and they rode him all the time. Dont forget that back then players could use BOTH THEIR HANDS on the back of their oppenents in the post and they regularly used the whole arm and hand, not just the forearm. Hakeem still destroyed every player including Ewing that Pat Riley threw at him. Anthony Mason was pretty much given a free pass to perform a body search on Hakeem that series. If Yao faced that kind of Riley/JVG defense with those old rules, Yao would be taking fadeaways from near the 3 point line and be spent by halftime.

 

I think I have watched as many as NBA games as you did. Robinson was dominated because the Spurs coach refused to double-team Dream while Robinson was double-teamed by the Rox.

Now about the Shaq's Orlando team, that team was better than the Rox team on paper, they had Penny and Grant. Grant is a very good PF who played on the Bull's 3 championship runs, and Penny of course was near his prime at the time. If not for Andersen's 4 missed FT, the series would be more competitive.

Defensively, Dream is much much better than Yao. He makes teammates better by allowing teammates gamble on the defensive side because teammates always know there is a blocker inside. Yao can't make the teammates better here that's why Rox has to bring in defensive-minded players to complement Yao.

Offensively, I think they are close now but I would still take Dream because Dream can play longer on the court. Remember Yao's 27 PPG average comes with only 36 minutes of play while Dream's 27 PPG came nearly with 40 minutes of play, so Yao could be a better scorer than Dream. But in the game end situation, Dream could also be efficient while Yao would be tired. Still, how many times have you seen Yao make 2 points when the game was on the line this season? plenty of times, this tells you that when Yao is not tired he is money when you need 2 points.

Anyway, for Rox to be a championship contender, they need a third scorer/or defender with size. Yao is no Shaq, he can't do with with T-mac alone, he needs help.

 

Unstoppability. If a guy is double, triple, quadruple teamed and he still makes the shot--that's what I call unstoppability. I think it's ok to hog the ball like this if you're hot and shooting a good percentage. That was a Hakeem. I don't remember his hook or his fadeaway ever being blocked in his prime. That fadeaway of his Jordan copied I believe. Then Kobe copied Jordan. I've seen their fadeaways get blocked.

I remember Hakeem blocking Eaton's hook shot...someone told me he blocked Kareem's sky hook.

 

Yao actually might do better against those traditional Centers who tend to play one on one. Yao can take anybody 1 on 1, doesn't matter who it is. He just needs the ball. Yao played some of his best games against O'neal when O'Neal refused help. And that was when Yao was up and coming and O'neal is still near his prime. Fatique will be less of an issue if there is no zone. He wouldn't have to fight as hard and would get more touches.

If Hakeem were to play today with the zone defense, his scoring and block shots will dip. Hakeem will get doubled and tripled just like Yao is right now. Fighting extremely hard to just get the ball will leave Hakeem fatiqued and surely, lower amount of touches will reduce scoring. Prime examble is the pseudo zone Seattle used on Hakeem. And that's the team Houston struggled the most against.

Yao will never, never match Hakeem in steals. And we may never see a center do that for another lifetime. Hakeem will own that on record books when I'm six feet under.

Its too bad the leaque does not keep stats on intimidation. I honestly believe Yao has less blocks because opponents get intimidated and thus passes out, change their shot, traveled, or throws up a wild shot.

I admit, I have not watched Olajuwon played much. I pretty sure he is an extremely intimidating figure but opponents would still attack him since he's only 6'10" ala Ben Wallace (even shorter) and would think there's no way he can get to me on time. Then bam!

Please note, i'm a little bias against hakeem. I still got that bitter taste in my mouth when John Starks shot New York out of the championship. The Knicks were the better team that year. Ahem, we'll save that argument for another time. =)

Still, MAD props to Hakeem for carrying the 94 team to glory.

If I have to pick a center right now, I would pick Hakeem. Hakeem dominated day in and day out, and only now has Yao reached that sort of consistency. Let see what a few more years will do to change that.

 

What do the old timers think of Moses Malone?

I know he only played a handful of seasons as a Rocket but those were his most dominating years.

How would Moses do against Hakeem?

 

LOL. that's exactly what I was thinking. we really need Tinman in this thread. the guy is hands down the best defender of our underrated championship team. he does this "rhyme" thing were he puts everything he wants to say into a little poem and posts a picture next to it. I mean, when people were talking crap about mad max, he destroyed all of them with a couple of poems and stats . when he hears all the stuff about Hakeem, I am sure he will explode with posts or something.

where are u TINMAN??

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Defense was might tighter then. Thanks for bringing that up.

However, from all the b****ing about officiating from JVG and Yao, I think Yao is still getting the 90s style of defense today.

 

ROTFLMAO

check it out. how many times have we seen players (centers, forwards, & guards) block Yao's shot? have u been watching Rockets games? Bill Worrell said "Yao gets blocked about once or twice every game, it doesn't bother him though". last game (against the Blazers), he got blocked by Travis Outlaw. Yao is a great player, I love Yao Ming. but this is the last thing u should mention when arguing in Yao's favor. getting blocked is Yao's biggest weakness along with turnovers and he will hopefully work on both of these

areas and become unstoppable. I really dont want to do this , I really hate it. but I have to. I hate to see it, I know it's a foul, it's just unfortunate:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rqlaN31OzDs"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rqlaN31OzDs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

btw, I hate this little dude. I was so happy he got suspended and I believe he should be suspended more than Anthony because he started that stupid brawl.

 

I'll say it again. Styles make fights.

If you had to sit down in a laboratory, and design a player who could most take advantage of Yao's weaknesses, here is what you'd do, short of creating an undead, 9 foot tall 500 pound cyborg-demon with extra damage bonuses.

Physically, you'd make him about 6-10 to 7 ft, in order to be able to get low on Yao. Further, you'd make sure he in turn has a solid base and a low center of gravity - a large trunk/torso relative to body size.

You'd give him the ability to move - QUICKLY (feeds off the previous). Yao is fast for his massive size, but not fast.

You'd make him strong, very strong, to both establish position and hold off position. Yao is 300 lbs.

You'd give him quick hands, to knock the ball away from Yao.

You'd give him high energy and endurance, to outpace Yao.. The ability to jump really high, really quickly - you'd make him a "quick leaper" as well as a fast leaper.

Add in an exquisite sense of timing.

You'd give him the ability to run the floor.

Add in shooting touch, & a healthy dose of intangibles, such as creativity, desire, tenacity, aggression.

You'd end up with #34.

 

I agree with u. Yao gets robbed by the officials every game and I think this is terrible. he is getting the 90s style, but not Hakeem's style in officiating. Hakeem used to get robbed in the measures of the 90s. pushing, tripping, tackling, hitting on the arms ...etc. were all acceptable against Hakeem. the thing that I like about him the most is that when he makes a move to the basket, 3 defenders try to strip him the ball and usually hit his arm, no call of course, but the great thing is that the ball rarely came out of his hand. he had unbelievable grip on the basket. I dont know how he did it, i dont know what he used to make his hands stick to the basketball. that's why I always called for getting Hakeem to work with Yao in the offseason, just for a little while. we've seen what he did with Okafor in one week. imagine Yao, as great as he is right now, with some Dream moves. freakin scary

 

I am very curious. Tell me how Dream never averaged 30PPG and never averaged more than Shaq did in Shaq's 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 8th, 9th year which were all above 28 points. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shaquille_oneal/career_stats.html

The statistical height for Dream's PPG was 1994-95, 27.8 points on 39.6 minutes of play with a 51.7% FG%. http://www.nba.com/history/players/olajuwon_stats.html

Right now, Yao is averaging 27 points on 36 minutes of play with a 52.3% FG%. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3599

You can make the argument Yao is better a scorer than Dream has EVER been at this point as long as Yao can stay on the court, but of course Yao has to maintain the current pace.

If anybody wants to say Yao is playing against WEAK centers so that his PPG is not valid, I am going to PUKE. IF YOU HAVE EVER CHECKED Shaq's stats cited above, you kow Shaq didn't average more points than the years when Robinson, Dream, Ewing were all playing.

So there is no argument Shaq's better offensive player than Dream and Yao could end up better than Dream as well offensively.

Defensively, no doubt, Dream beats Shaq and Yao by a wide margin.

Now if people want to argue using photos or one game/one shot stats, Shaq's still better than Dream offensively from his ONE dunk captured on some photographs, Dream is better than Yao because Dream has been on the good top 10 list all the time while Yao is not even as good as Nate Robinson because he has been blocked by Nate, but you know that logic would be false.