This is the kind of stuff that makes me shake my head in wonder. They don't want to make any sacrifice? Steve, has the ability to put up close to 30 a night if he chose to hog the ball regularly, and not on occasion or semi-regularly. He's shown a willingness to pass the ball this year, for the most part. His game has changed and is in a visible process of changing. I don't even know where to begin when I see stuff like this.
Yeah, I have to say I'm completely amazed. I should have known better, but lately I've not checked in here after games. I have, on my own, completely enjoyed reading game stats. Okay, too many turnovers, but this team is obviously completely different. Assists way up... Many people scoring... Completely shutting down other teams... Then to find so much negativity here reminds me of why I stick to the Debate and Discussion. ... Uh, hold on a minute.
MacBeth, although I see some tendencies of the "old iso" ball. It's not that often. They have been substantial changes in the way the team plays. That includes Francis. In the past, I would have welcomed your post with open arms! But we are on the right track. We'll get better and better as a team if JVG has his way. So far, I like what I see. Francis's old habits will be broken. He'll see that. And yes. Winning the wrong way (individual ball), is worse than losing the right way (Sometimes the other team just plays a little more perfect game than you. You get beat even if you do everything, "right.").
I re-watched it too and either you are missing NJ's defensive set or just aren't seeing the whole picture when you say that Yao was constantly open and no one would give up the ball. NJ did something a lot of teams - well, at least the teams who have the ability - are going to copy. They put heavy ball pressure on the guards, overplayed the pick and roll and played very agressive defense on Yao either 3/4-ing him (not fronting) or running two guys at him before there was even a pass attempted. IMO, this is something the Rockets will have to adjust to because, while they have won 3 of 4, that style of defense cost them the Grizz game and nearly cost them this game. That they won was a testament to their own defense and hitting big shots down the stretch but not to their offensive skills in the half court. The Rockets are finding that our firsthand with the focus on Yao and the ability to play zone defense that teams are cheating over on Yao while he is in the post. Before he even gets the ball, there are two defenders on him. In the case of NJ, they overplay everything and force turnovers. The Rockets don't have the chemistry and experience of playing in JVG's system for more than a few months to know how to swing the ball quickly or how to fully exploit the strenth of each player including Yao. As a result, they have struggled offensively. For Yao's part, he is being 3/4'ed now by defenders. It eliminates his height advantage by forcing bounce passes into the post and often keeps him from the right block because those same passes have to go to his weak hand (left) on that side of the floor. What this does if force Yao to out muscle guys on the block, something he just isn't physically able to do when the guy who is defending him is large and strong. It also means he must be very agressive to force his position, something he has yet to fully embrace. Personally, I think the zone defense rules have done a lot of damage to the low post game. In Hakeem's day, guys simply could not double him until he had the ball or at worst on the pass - which was how Seattle defended him and drove him nuts. No one would 3/4 Dream because he was too strong and threw a few too many elbows. Yes, Yao has been on the low block. Yes, there are times when passes COULD be gotten to him. But, it isn't simply because players are ignonring him that he isn't getting it as often. There is a significant difference between a pass into the post and a SAFE pass into the post. You think Robert Horry has gotten paid so well by teams with dominant big men for nothing? He probably is one of the most effective entry passers in the league. He throws it right where the guy needs it, rarely takes risks and is usually taller than the guy who is guarding him. The Rockets have struggled getting the ball into the post for a lot of reasons - Yao's overall strength and agressivness, his lack of experience in a league full of experienced players, the team's lack of real experience in this type of a system, the guards predisposition to dominate the ball, complex defensive tactics employed against Yao and the rest of the Rockets...the list goes on. It is an oversimplification to suggest that Yao doesn't get the ball because the guards are selfish, unwilling or un-intellegent. It is also an oversimplification to suggest that Yao simply isn't agressive enough to get the ball. The reality is that it is all of those things and more. No changes worth making happen overnight. It takes a long time to build the kind of dominant low post game we'd like to have. It requires the right player to play in the post with the kind of experience and ability necessary to succeed. It take the right personnel in place around him to not just get him the ball but rotate effectively and provide other things for the defense to worry about. It takes the right scheme and, most importantly, effective execution. If this were a 100-step process, the Rockets would be on about step 50. We have the right player but likely with not enough experience to dominate yet. Only a small handful of the greatest players ever to grace the court managed to dominate the game before their 3rd, 4th or 5th seasons int he league. We have other dangerous offensive weapons, though we lack consistent long-range scoring threats despite what our current three point percentage might indicate. We seem to have the right coach and scheme in place, but it has only been in place for a couple months and our execution at the moment is average at best, poor at worst. There's no magic pill, no all-inclusive answer, no quick fix. It may very well take months, even years to become the kind of team we want the Rockets to be. It certainly isn't going to happen in the first few games of this season. The progress we've seen in the first four games is really pretty remarkable considering where we were. It just makes sense to temper our emotions with the realization that building a champion takes time.
hey macbeth, what you have here is the classic deontological vs. consequentialist debate. Throw this in the debate forum over the war in iraq and it can go on forever. I agree with you that there are fundamental things we need to uphold but it is oh so difficult when the wrong thing can give us what we want. For now I will say that we are at least lucky enough to have other talents on the team just in case plan A doesnt work. I think this is also what most people will do in life, if the right thing doesnt work, do the next thing that will get the results you want. the trouble is having faith in plan A and be willing to go back to it.
MacBeth - Although we share a long history of general agreement, we are lately 0-2...value of the trade exception and now this. Versus the Bulls, Yao got plenty of touches and the ball went through him. Check out my short hand listing of each half court set vs CHI... Q1 - http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67523&perpage=30&pagenumber=2 and Q3 - http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67523&perpage=30&pagenumber=3 Versus the Nets, Yao was obviously tired (Rox arrived in NJ at 3:00 AM with a noon meeting) and the Nets did an excellent job of disguising where the double was coming from. From your numerous high-level posting, I am convinced you surely see the difference between Rudy ISO ball and Van Gundy's move the ball until we get a match/advantage we like. If a team shuts down Yao or he is having a bad night (it happens to everyone), we need others to step up and hit open shots. Perhaps I have misunderstood, but 10 shots Yao and Mo, and 9 each for Cat and JJax is not exactly undisciplined basketball. Frances forced the game a little but he is markedly more under control that last season. Learning a new offense is a difficult propostion and it usually lags behind defense. IMHO, the Rox have very much excepted playing D...the O will follow. Patience!
We need to put Jeff's and Gater's posts in a thread, sticky it, and refer every single Yaozer that insists on posting the stupid "Yao's touchs" argument to it. Both of them on the spot, and unbiased. Im thankful Im not the only one that sees the games that way.
We need competent entry pass makers and post entry schemes or Yao is gonna waste a lot of strength fighting for the mysterious "perfect" position to accommodate the ineptitude of the guards who couldn't throw decent lob passes. Learn from JJ.
Jeff, That was post of the year material. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I definitely enjoyed your voice of reason in his thread.
This is kind of B.S. that really pisses me off about a lot of threads. While can see a lot of other points made in your posts, I just can't stand the "personal" attacks that are for the most part unwarranted. How has Steve show that he's immature? By reaching out to struggline teamates? (reaching out to Eddie, defending Yao after his first 2 horrible games, find the game review if you have time and don't believe me). How has he been whiny? Constantly saying he's willing to sacrifise to win? (You have to admit he's making an effort to change). How has he been petulant? (he's for the most I've seen a nice guy, Rasheed is petulant and would go awol right now if he got the same amount of critcism. Steve takes the crap that's thrown at him and return with a civilized manner, how is he petulant damn it). I can't stand the posts that uses personal attacks on our own players. I mean the words "stupid guard, dumb guards" when describing everything they do, it doesnt help your argument at all. Say they need to pass, fine, that's your opionion, but insulting them just brings a negative and hostile flavor to the board that's becoming the trend lately.
You mean the way he reacted when Vancouver took him on draft night. You mean when he's always among the league leaders in technical fouls You mean when he yells at teammates during the game. You mean when he told Baron Davis to dunk on Yao during the World Championships because he wasn't happy the Rockets drafted Yao. I've always respected Francis because of his desire to win and play with pain. However, his history speaks for himself. You can say it's all bs and Im attacking Steve blah blah blah. It's a fact that Steve is not the most mature, composed player on the court. When things go bad, he often acts like a child. if you don't notice these things, you're not watching close enough. Im sorry if the truth offends people.
Just my input: I think its not where you start,but where you end up. What does that mean? Just like in Hakeems day, he always wanted to work left block and for the most part it worked,but when we played Seattle, the guards couldn't get him the ball. Travel up 45 till you hit I-84 and go to Salt Lake. How did Malone get the ball so deep almost everytime for 18+ yrs? Having John Stockton helped out a whole lot, but also having "schemes" help out alot also. How about starting Ming on the opposite block, the guards pass the ball to the wing, run through and if he doesn't get the ball, set the infamous back pick and roll ming to the front of the rim. How about starting him on the elbow while having Cat on the opposite box and let him come up and set the high pick and roll into the middle of the lane. As I watched the games so far, they are making an effort to get him the ball, but the give up too quickly in doing so. In fairness to the guards, Ming has to do a better job of stepping into the middle of the lane when the ball is opposite and making himself availible for the pass at all times. Standing opposite with your hands on you shorts isn't going to cut it. Its fault on both parts, but the one thing that concerns me is still the high to's they have had. They don't score enough points to continually commit 22 to's.
I agree. This type of name-calling is really bringing the board down. What a drag it is to read how stupid Steve is or how wimpy Yao is in 30 threads a day. These are our All-Stars, for God's sake. As for MacBeth's post, I have to agree more with Jeff. A couple of games ago we had Six, count them SIX players in double figures. Is there no ball movement there? You'd rather there be seven of them? Eight? No. I feel as though MacBeth, along with many many other posters here are devoutly impatient for Yao Ming to dominate the game of basketball. I like to think that in a few years he will. But simply tossing Yao the ball and letting HIM iso against defenders on every play isn't going to do any better than the guards doing it. Teams are already catching on that he's our first option, and the zone defense, added to defang another center in the league, give teams a lot of weapons to use against him. We need guys that can drive the lane, we need perimeter shooters, we need mid-range hook shots. We need all of those things because it makes the game easier on Yao. When another team isn't sure whether they're going to have Yao Ming muscle in, Francis reversing, Piatkowski bombing or whatever, that's when a defense becomes weak. In Memphis, when we couldn't get the ball to Yao, the game was lost right there because the rest of our team didn't step up. The keys to the ROckets' offensive game is ball movement and moving without the ball. We talked about this so much last season and now everyone has forgotten it. Yao's a huge part of that; so is Jackson. So is Mo Taylor. They all are. We need six guys in double figures every night. We need seven. We need to be a team, not four guys who feed Yao, not one guy who drives the lane, not even one awesome center who can knock down 70%. Those systems don't win it all in today's zone West. Teams that give you six guys that put up doubles and play hard-nosed defense do.
Im going to have to agree with Jeff on this one all the way. From what i have seen the rockets are perfoming completly beyond my expectations Considering that we have a new coach with somewhat of a new system, 3 rotation guys out, the starting center (that your saying needs the ball more) miss training camp, and another player miss all of the preseason games, and Moochie Norris trying his best to screw things up.
Thanks Macbeth and Jeff for the good reading to kill time until Saturday. IMO, it all rests with Yao Ming. If he has the confidence to dominate, he will call out to the guards what goes wrong and right. Until that day comes, the glass is always half full.
I'd just like to add that getting Pike back will go a long way in solving these problems. He'll be that consistent outside scoring threat that we need to punish stubborn double-teams, and (I haven't seen for myself) JVG has commented on Pike being a good post entry passer. Those 2 things should make things a LOT easier on Yao Ming, IMO. Right now, we just don't have that 3-pt threat that will scare other teams, but luckily have been "on" from the outside.
This thread is good for some laughs. People who are confused by what JVG means when he says Yao needs to demand the ball crack me up. It's not just about Yao asking/demanding the ball, it's about Yao WANTING the ball. I swear, if Ming was putting up 30 pts, regardless of the circumstances, Yetti would be happy. Even if we went winless, he wouldn't blame JVG as long as Yao is doing well, he'd blame Steve and Cat. What's funny is that we are off to a 3 and 1 start and Yetti, with all his unlimited basketball knowledge, still thinks that JVG doesn't "get it," Steve doesn't "get it," etc. doesn't "get it." OMG, I swear that the phrase "get it" is the bane of my existence.
