West never offered Miller. He offered Battier. You can only weight options based on what offers you get, not on what you want. Rockets had a choice to make between Battier or Gay, not Miller. Actually, they didn't have to....they decided to. This discussion was never about Miller anways.... As for the part where you expect "greatness" from Gay, since that seems to be your benchmark, when would you say....hmmm... Battier would hit greatness? I will say it again, I don't hate Battier. I think he is a good serviceable player. It's just that we gave up a lot for him. We gave up something that this team needs badly. The return for that trade has been a disappointment.
Actually, the story I heard was there was a choice between Miller and Battier, and the Rockets (Morey) chose Battier. There was also a choice between Juwan Howard and Swift as the filler, and West chose Swift. That was the story from denniscd or somebody on this board, if I remember correctly. Frankly, between Miller and Battier, I would chose Battier. I'd like Miller in addition to Battier, though. Miller would fill the shooter/scorer off the bench role better than either Bonzi (no outside shot) or Head (undersized). In any case, of course Battier is not going to achieve "greatness." He is better than a good serviceable player, however. He has hounded many good wings into subpar shooting nights. He also frequently makes critical stops when teammates get beat. His offense is limited, but he does spot-up shooting well and, when asked to do it, is a pretty decenet offensive rebounder. As for Rudy Gay... if we had him, the offense may run better-- if he manages to run well within Adelman's system, which not every scorer can do. The other question, though, is whether we will not lose something on the other end of the floor. You can't blame the Grizz's softness all on one player, but Rudy certainly did not do anything to stand out among the softies. Frankly, I really don't know what is up with that Memphis team. On paper, they have talent-- Miller, Gay, Gasol, Darko, Navarro, Lowry. But there just seems to be no team cohesion. Do you blame it on highly regarded former Suns assistant Iavaroni?
I don't understand this argument you keep clinging to. You keep touting Gasol and Mike Miller as Jordan/Pippen redux in an attempt to demean Gay, but Philadelphia is the only team I can think of with a more underwhelming top duo.
Nobody is Jordan Pippen. But Gasol was a 20 ppg guy over 05/06 and 06/07 with over 50% shooting. Miller averaged 18 ppg wth 46% shooting last season, and 16 ppg with 50% shooting this year. These are not bad players. They are not leading anyone to the championships, but these two guys, along with Battier and probably a less talented cast than the one they have this year, were good enough to win 50 games and got to the playoffs for a couple of years. They didn't manage to win any playoff games, but that's better than where they are. This is not to say that Battier is and will always be a better player, but you can't minimize the impact he made and continues to make. There is no guarantee that if the Rockets had simply switched Battier with Gay, they would have solved their problems.
I think it's worth mentioning that the Grizzlies' coaching staff were far superior during those years.
So, you think the current one sucks? I mean, they (Jerry West?) fired Fratello in order to hire this one.
It's pretty unanimous that Iavaroni isn't cutting it right now. The players have opened up a can of "I don't care" on him. He's got 50+ games to win them back and prove he's a legit NBA coach. Few expected the Grizz to make the playoffs, but 8-21?
You keep creating these false dichotomies. I never said Gasol and Mike Miller were bad players. They're neither bad nor "great." You can name two stat stuffers on any team in basketball. Again, the logical flaws, this time the strawman. Noone said Gay would solve this team's problems. But on a team starved for athleticism/quickness, he could have helped. We saw Battier do absolutely nothing in last year's playoffs, in accord with his track record.
Battier did nothing vs. Jazz because Yao and TMac had subpar games. The Jazz defense largely handled TMac and Yao without leaving the shooters open. There were not many open shots for Battier-- or any of our spot-up shooters to take. Would Gay have done something with Jazz? Who knows. Somehow, I think Jerry Sloan might figure a way out to defend him, too. I did not say Gasol and Miller were great or bad-- nor forced a choice between the two. In fact, I laid out how good I think they are: They were good enough to win 50 games with a decent coaching staff and Shane Battier. (Sure, they had other guys, too... but were these (Jason Williams, Lo Wright, an out of shape Bonzi Wells, etc) any more talented than the current cast of Lowry, Darko, Navarro etc? These guys have been more than stat stuffers on bad teams in the past-- they've stuffed stats on above average teams. Both of these guys have also played on their respective national teams. We are not talking about Ricky Davis here.
This is precisely my point. I'm not saying Battier is garbage. I'm saying that you have a problem when your entire offense is predicated upon standstill spotup shooters hitting open shots. Yao and McGrady are not Kobe and Shaq - they can be handled without leaving other guys open. It's management's job to get guys in here who can get their own shots. Would Jerry Sloan find a way to defend him? Probably, but I would rather have a 19 year old who has a chance to get better than a 28 year old who you don't even need to do any "figuring out" to shut down. Calling Bonzi Wells out of shape is a stretch. He was a contributor in the regular season. Hubie Brown is also a great coach. This is all irrelevant anyhow. The argument is whether or not Battier is a better fit for the Rockets than Gay would have been. How is the scope now being shifted to the Grizzlies? Who cares - maybe Battier was instrumental to the Grizzlies that year, it's a moot point. Playing devil's advocate, they had athletes and youth, they needed a smart role player to guide the team. We have veterans and no footspeed. Playing on one's national team is hardly an indicator of ability as plenty of mediocre players have enjoyed this honor. Look no further than Shane Battier for Exhibit A.
Bonzi Wells was out of shape. In fact, he admitted it himself. When Bonzi signed with the Kings, at the press conference to introduce him, he talked about having dropped 30lbs over the offseason and was looking forward to a great start. Mike Fratello played Bonzi in the regular season, but the guy was not that great... His +/- for the season was at -6.3. His rebounding numbers, particularly the offensive rebounds were at a career low 1.3 per 40 minutes. As for Hubie-- I believe Mike Fratello was around for Bonzi's last season instead of Hubie. In any case, why do you think Hubie was a great coach? How do you define great? Are you saying Hubie was better than, say, Rick Adelman and Jeff Van Gundy? Just trying to figure out what you mean by "great." Here, by the way, is Hubie's coaching history: http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/brownhu99c.html And here's the Czar's: http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/fratemi99c.html About mediocre players on national teams.. sure there are. I would argue that Battier was far from mediocre, but no matter, we are talking about Gasol and Miller here. I don't think anyone can argue that Gasol and Miller are mediocre. Bottomline, again, is that they were good enough to lead a team to 50 wins a couple years ago and I don't think they are anywhere past their prime yet. Also, Jerry West saw it fit to max out Gasol and pay Miller handsomely (I believe he makes $8.5 million this season). If you think West is a shrewed talent evaluator, then there must be something to these two guys. In any case, if the question is whether substituting Rudy Gay for Shane Battier on the current Rockets roster would have made them better, I would consider that doubtful. Battier's defense and, of late, 3 point shooting, have been critical in the Rockets winning even as many games as they have so far. Edit: Just saw Jonathan Feigan's blog entry on last night's game. Notce the part regarding Rudy Gay's defense. Having watched the game, I think it's a fair reprsentation of how the Grizz played. A smart role player and excellent defender isn't just what the Memphis team lacked, it's what the Rockets team needs, too. The defensive intergrity of this team depends a lot on Battier. Having a defensive sieve replacing him, even one who can give you 19 points a game, may in fact have made the team even worse. If we are talking about the "future" as in 2, 3, 4 years from now-- it's anyone's guess what Rudy's ceiling is. What to you think? Will he be a TMac, Kobe level guy or are we talking about Jason Richardson?
No, Jerry West was best, he isnt anymore. Everyone remembers the Kobe trade, but that was a decade ago. Since then, what has he done. Some recent moves he made in Memphis were to draft Dahntay Jones and Troy Bell in the first round during the same year (2003). He chose them instead of Josh Howard, Boris Diaw, Leandro Barbosa. The next year he chose Hakin Warrick instead of David Lee. Then he makes a trade that basically nets the Heat a championship. He gives up Jason Williams, James Posey, and Bonzi Wells, and basically brings back Eddie Jones and Bobby Jackson in this multi team deal. Hardly any benefit came to Memphis in this deal. So, just because West was behind the trade with the Rox, doesnt mean anything. Memphis is still one of the worst teams in the league. Yes, Gay is athletic and will get his points, but thats it. He isnt a leader, he doesnt hustle, plays bad defense (will get blocked shots, but cant guard anyone) and disappears for long stretches. Im not saying he is a bad player. But he is getting his numbers on a bad team (see Mike James), and people here act like he is the next Tmac or Kobe. He has neither Tmac's all around game, or Kobe's will to be the best. He isnt and will never be in their league.
Hey, every trade you make can't be with the Rockets management. Some other teams have GM's with a brain.
He gave them 12ppg off the bench that year. I believe they also had James Posey and Jason Williams making contributions as well. This is irrelevant however. I can concede the point and even throw in some hyperbole and state that Battier was the sole factor in making the Grizzlies a 50 win team and it won't change anything in pertinence to this dicussion - whether he is the best fit for the Houston Rockets. You're just turning this into a petty semantics debate now. Who cares if Hubie is "great" by the literal definition of the word. It's pretty well recognized that he is a respected basketball coach and good at handling young players. If you think Hubie didn't play a big part in that team's resurgence, I really don't know what to say. As far as Gasol and Miller, of course they aren't mediocre. My use of the term was for effect. They're both solid players but your constant citing of the two as some power duo who in combination with Gay should be tearing the league apart (if Gay were as good as Battier) to prove your agenda that Gay sucks is quite the stretch. I mean seriously, I can just as easily name 3rd tier guys like that from any team and wonder aloud why they suck. How about Michael Redd, Bobby Simmons, Yi, and Bogut? Didn't the Bucks make the playoffs a few years back? Using your same logic, shouldn't the Nets with Jason Kidd, Jefferson, and Carter be better than 14-16. What a weak, weak, weak argument. Rafer Alston's ball handling has also been critical in our few wins. Chuck Hayes' hustle has been huge in our wins. Yao Ming's post game. Just because a guy contributes something to a win doesn't mean he can't simultaneously be hurting you in the overall scheme of things. Your argument is analogous to someone in the '99 season saying that employing the "dump it down to Charles/Hakeem" offense wasn't hurting the team in the grand scheme because our few wins came using that very method. We most likely would not have made the playoffs last year without Battier - he anchored the team's defense. I can even concede that maybe we would not better this year with Rudy Gay over Battier. But I would rather be grooming a guy for later than have a guy I know isn't going to give you anything in May when everyone turns up the hustle. For a young team like Memphis was, his leadership and intangibles are invaluable to making the postseason. But for a veteran club like Houston with alleged championship aspirations, I think the bar should be set a tad bit higher... Or it may have made them better, who knows? Especially when you have a team that seems to have completely abandoned their defensive principles while trying to win with a more offensive approach. (Please do not point to the last two wins over mediocre opponents). I think if I'm trying to win with offense, I would rather have the guy with more in his repertoire than a wide open three point shot and an awkward jump hook in the paint. That's just me, though. Not saying that this is your argument, but I find this to be the greatest strawman approach of all by the Battier crowd when a bunch of 15 year old idiots last year declared Gay the next Lebron James, subsequently sinking the credibility of any argument made by the pro-Gay contingency. I have always held the opinion that Rudy Gay will never make an All-Star team. I think some idiot compared him to McGrady in this same thread. He's not that type of player. He doesn't have playmaking abilities, not much of a handle... The point is that you look at these playoff teams with athletic guys like Monta Ellis, Devin Harris, non All-Star young guys that just come in and give you energy and change the pace of the game. We could really use that type of energy.
On off court +/- for 04/05: Battier: +11.1 Jason Williams: -0.9 Posey: -7.4. Bonzi Wells: -6.3. It's not be all end all of contribution, but it does have some relevance as to which one of these players contributed the most. Noboby says Battier was the sole contributor. Hell.. he was there when they were bad, too. No one player is going to carry a franchise, but Battier was critical to the success they had. As for his fit for the Rockets. See below. Hubie did. So did Fratello when Hubie got tired of coaching. Again, it's as silly to say that Battier was the only critical part of their success as it is to say he played no part. The numbers flat out say that he did, and do did the opinion of coaches, scouts, and GMs. When did I say Gay sucks? He's definitely a good player. I'm just saying it's pretty silly to think that replacing Battier with Gay on this team this year would be certain to improve the Rockets. I don't see how Battier is hurting the Rockets overall. The Rockets have been better offensively with him on the floor than off. In fact, his 3 point shooting has been important in spreading the floor. I guess the real question is whether the Rockets are better off with someone else other than Battier. Well, depends on who that someone else is. In my opinion, it would have to be a damn good player for the Rockets to improve over the Rockets with Battier. It would be someone better than the current version of Rudy Gay. I believe the Rockets, overall, have allowed about 1 more point per 100 possession than they did last season. They have not abandoned defensive principals. There are some games in which they struggled on D-- just as there were last season. There are also games in which they flat out seemed to have given up-- but that's not abandoning D in favor of offense... they didn't try on offense, either. The Rockets are trying to win with both offense and defense. I also think Battier is contributing on both ends of the floor. Spot up shooters and garbage guys are important in both regular season and hte playoffs. I don't dispute atheleticism and scoring abilities are important. But winning championships not as simple as getting a few young atheletic guys who may not give consistent effort and hoping they'd turn it up a notch in playoffs. If that were the case, the Spurs would not have have been holding on to-- and playing-- old guys like Bowen, Finley, Barry, Horry, etc. Just because a guy plays hard all season doesn't mean their team will suck come playoff time when younger more atheletic guys turn up the intensity. (By the way... about the Spur's supposed coasting in regular season-- they don't coast by playing lazy, they simply conserve their guys in terms of minutes played. These guys still compete very hard in regular seasons). There is no automatic switch to turn inconsistent but talented players up a notch every May. For every atheletic guy who enjoyed a good playoff run there are more who played at the same level or underperformed. Did atheletic Swift and scorers Gasol and Miller turn up their intensity come May? Did Tracy McGrady become a defensive hound? How about Ray Allen? J.R. Smith? What Battier does is not just all effort. There are things he sees and does that may nother guys are simply not capable of doing, even if they are trying hard. As for Rudy Gay. I likely think more of him than you do. I think the guy can become an All Star. I also think his limit is more Jason Richardson than TMac, given the fact that he doesn't have much handles or court vision. He has potential to play good defense, but so far has not done so. I'm not sure if that's quite good enough to be more usefual than a top defender who also provides long range firepower (I mean... did Jason Richardson add more winning to the Bobcats?). Also, I am not quite sure it's not harder to find a Shane Battier than a not-quite-yet star player.
Since this is the Gay Watch....Rudy had another good game against the Pacers last night: 24, 6, and 5 and +23 for the peopel that care about plus/minus #s. He shot 50% from the field and 4-7 from 3 point land. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=ArVI0f5q9mExxog8YiCdi4C8vLYF?gid=2008010211
