The (gay) March to Mecca

Pakistan is not exactly the best example.

You need 4 male witnesses to carry on with execution. Not prosecution. If the article says otherwise, it is false.

 

As far as I'm concerned, you are the intolerant one. Intolerant of my rights to be a practicing Muslim in an Islamic country.

Obviously, once someone mentioned it, I realized it's a joke, but a discussion stemmed from the joke article.

 

You make it impossible for me to be sensitive to other people's opinions.

Gays are NOT born.

I don't think it's ok for someone to choose homosexuality and live in a Muslim country. If you make that choice, deal with the consequences - certain people don't agree with you, and certain countries are not going to welcome you.

 

A fine line to walk. I would restrain the guy personally, but yeah, we agree that the guy should be stopped.

But that line is being blurred. Soon enough, the kid is going to want to be gay and openly practice in front of the owner of the house, his father, and nothing can be done about it. The option to say "you know, that goes against my beliefs. So since this is my property, you can go do whatever it is you wanna do under someone else's roof with someone else's cash and support" should always be there.

Can we agree on that? Since were talking about freedom, can't this guy exercise his freedom to practice his religion? Especially in his own house?

 

They are not? I thought homosexuality was generic.

Don't you mean it's not wise to practise homosexuality in a Muslim country? If gays were born homosexual, then how could that be their fault?

Isn't sex the most private thing in people's lives? Why should two consenting adults be punished for what they do in their own private time, within their own private property, involving and affecting no one but themselves? It's not fair.

 

Ok, one more time.

1) There are gay muslims. There are alcoholic muslims. There are muslim terrorists. That doesn't make what they do ok, nor does it mean their actions are validated because "maybe they were born with it". Let's say I am Muslim and I drink. The key is, I hate that I drink, and I acknowledge that it is wrong. The problem lies where drinkers claim that it is ok to drink in Islam. NO, it is never ok to drink in Islam and you ARE sinning.

2) Everything bows to religion in Islamic theory. Biological urges, science, politics, economics. Everything. You will sin, no one is perfect, but it's not ok to sin. You will be judged by how you acknowledge the sin, what you do to fix it, and your heart's intentions before and after the incident. Therefore, we are weak, and we are given chances to redeem ourselves in this life and after. As I understand it, Christianity forgives everything because Jesus redeemed everyone's sins? I am not sure about this, but I think that's the basic idea. I don't know how the rules work with regards to regretting the incident, your intentions, confessing, etc.. I don't know anything about the Jewish take on homosexuality.

3) I respectfully disagree. To me, personally, that is ridiculous. Part of religion is a guideline of what is right and wrong, and those rights and wrongs include animal urges such as the urge to kill or the urge to rape, which exists within humans. Is it ok to kill or rape if you have the urge to? What stops a person who has the urge? That's right. Practicing some basic right or wrong principles. So do we have urges to drink alcohol? Of course we do. But does that mean that Muslims should all drink because they have the urge? or that it's impossible to kill that urge? or that drinking alcohol is not a sin because we have an urge to drink it? No, no, and no.

 

Ok, I'm getting tired of saying this. I do not believe that homosexuals are born the way they are. If they were born homosexual is a seperate issue. I don't believe that. So the hypothetical really doesn't matter.

Yes, sex is private, but if anyone cared to look at the prosecution of homosexuals in Saudi you will come to realize it only happens to people who are stupid enough to not keep it private.

 

What is your basis for believing homosexuality is not genetic? There is a large amount of scientific literature on this issue and a significant of them seem to suggest that homosexuality has at least some genetic factor. Have a look at the papers at here http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html .

Still, what does that tell you about the laws of Saudi? Should two men making out in the public be a crime punishable by death? What harm have they done to the general public to deserve the death penalty?

 

I know this has nothing to do with the debate, but from what I understand, Ehsan is not an American and he doesn't live here.

 

It isn't hypothetical just because you refuse to believe it. It is almost proven that it occurs during process developed during the gestation of the embryo and fetus, just like left-handedness. Female sheep will likewise show homosexual behavior if their pregnant mothers are injected with testosterone during a critical gestation period. It is absolutely physical and physiological. The violent reaction of these societies (and ours) is based on nothing but ignorance, like always.

 

Ehsan, I ask this with great interest, how do people in Islamic countries reconcile with their religion and the advances in humanity since it was created.

For instance, what would happen if being gay was scientifically proven to be genetic? How would the Muslim faith reconcile with that?

This is the biggest thing I struggle with is that most religions are so dogmatic and unchanging, and were written during a completely different era with different problems....another example is eating pork, it is clearly not an unhealthy meat to eat, yet when the Quran and Torah were written pigs were carriers of many diseases, but instead of modifying the religious texts they simply banned eating it.

How can anyone really say they lived when they have not had bacon?



DD

 

DP...

 

LOL, as has been stated before - nobody is saying you don't have the right to practice your religion. (again, consdering the long history of homosexual practices in many islamic regions, there's obviously various interpretations as to its acceptability)

- just don't expect others to be silent. If you don't like to be criticized for it - log off the message board. I'm sure there's all kinds of other message boards where you won't have to deal with it.

What's a joke is that you think freedom includes freedom to practice bigotry without criticism. Sorry man, if you're going condemn and marginalize people for arbitrary reasons, expect the same treatment in return.

 

You went from this:

To this:

You have certainly become more forceful during this thread as you faced more opposition.

Out of curiosity, does the Koran really say that homosexuality is not genetic or does it simply say that it is a sin and forbidden. In other words, how much detail is there?

 

what if it was proven there's a gene that makes people want to molest little children?

 

Dude, I totally know what you mean. I can't tell you how many friends of mine came out to their parents, then not a week later were having hot gay sex on the dinner table. DURING DINNER! Those gays sure are jerks...

 

Your attempts to link the two are noble, and novel - in fact it's straight out of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh, of course child abuse is almost universally illegal due to its inherently victimizing nature, whereas homosexuality between consenting adults is not.

 

Muslims can believe and practice whatever they want. I'm not out to change Islam. What I disagree with you though is the belief that because Islam forbids it that means that it doesn't exist. I also disagree with the connotation that homosexuality is on par with killing and raping but not being a Muslim its not for me to decide what Muslims consider right or wrong. My suggestion though is that homosexuality isn't the matter of choice you make it out to be and that religion is far from all powerful given that there are many who in spite of religion are still practicing homosexuals and that it is not only making those people hypocrites but also bringing them and others pain and confusion.

 

1) There is also large amount of scientific literature suggesting otherwise. As I have mentioned, the amount of literature supporting your claim currently outnumbers the amount of litertaure supporting my claim. That means nothing is factual... at least not yet. Till then, it would make more sense for me to believe what my religion says doesn't it?

2) Based on Islamic beliefs, yes. Someone stated the law earlier. Four men have to be witness to the act of penetration for it to be punishable by death. We're not animals. Do you think Muslims are ok with heterosexual sex in public? A man and a woman, unless married, are not allowed to hold hands in public in Saudi. Getting it on with another guy while at least four people are watching is definitely... asking for it.