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The Fiscal Cliff

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by CometsWin, Nov 17, 2012.

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What will happen with the fiscal cliff situation?

  1. Democrats get most of what they favor

    24 vote(s)
    23.5%
  2. Republicans get most of what they favor

    4 vote(s)
    3.9%
  3. Good deal for both sides, cuts and tax increases

    9 vote(s)
    8.8%
  4. No deal

    13 vote(s)
    12.7%
  5. Punt, short term deal that pushes the deadline back

    52 vote(s)
    51.0%
  1. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    Curious what everyone's predictions are. It looks like the Democrats are ready to use the election to keep things off the table.

    Democrats stiffen spine against trimming benefits
    http://news.yahoo.com/democrats-stiffen-spine-against-trimming-benefits-135744343--finance.html

    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama's re-election has stiffened Democrats' spine against cutting popular benefit programs such as Medicare and Social Security. Their new resolve could become as big a hurdle to a deal that would skirt crippling tax increases and spending cuts in January as Republicans' resistance to raising tax rates on the wealthy.

    Just last year, Obama and top Democrats were willing during budget negotiations with Republicans to take politically risky steps such as reducing the annual inflation adjustment to Social Security and raising the eligibility age for Medicare.

    Now, with new leverage from Obama's big election victory and a playing field for negotiations that is more favorable in other ways, too, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and other Democrats are taking a harder line.

    "I've made it very clear. I've told anyone that will listen, including everyone in the White House, including the president, that I am not going to be part of having Social Security as part of these talks relating to this deficit," Reid, D-Nev., told reporters.

    Reid's edict would appear to take a key proposal off the table as an ingredient for a deal on avoiding the "fiscal cliff," the year-end combination of expiring President George W. Bush-era tax cuts and harsh across-the-board spending cuts.

    At issue is the inflation adjustment used by the government to calculate cost-of-living adjustments for Social Security and other federal programs. A less generous inflation measure that takes into account consumers finding alternatives when prices go up could reduce deficits by more than $200 billion over the next decade.

    It's a no-brainer for many budget wonks because it means gradual, less noticeable curbs to the growth of benefits. It also means about $70 billion more tax revenues over 10 years because automatic rises in tax brackets to account for inflation would be smaller.

    That new inflation index, known as chained Consumer Price Index, is a magic elixir for budget writers. But it's anathema to many liberals, who say that moving to the new cost-of-living measure could cut average retiree benefits by about $600 a year a decade after taking effect and mean a cut of about $1,000 a year after 20 years.

    "Think about it this way. You're standing on the deck of a boat and you're in very deep water and they want you to swim, but they're going to put a log chain around your ankle," Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, told a group of liberal activists assembled for a rally Thursday in a Senate hearing room. "That's chained CPI."

    Sixteen months ago, Obama's White House took a different view during talks with House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, on a possible budget deal. A White House draft offer by top Obama aide Rob Nabors, made public by Washington Post author Bob Woodward, proposed several controversial changes to benefit programs, including the lower inflation adjustment, raising the eligibility age for Medicare and higher Medicare premiums.

    Those negotiations, however, were conducted on a playing field that favored Republicans. It was less than a year after Obama's self-described "shellacking" in the 2010 elections and the president was desperate to win an increase in the government's borrowing cap and avoid a government default on its debt that should shatter financial markets. Also, Obama still faced re-election in 2012.

    Now conditions favor Obama.

    He decisively won re-election and Republicans seem fearful of being tagged with the blame if an impasse results in the government going over the fiscal cliff. Obama and Democrats already are portraying Republicans as hostage-takers willing let tax rates rise on everyone if the lower Bush-era tax rates are not also extended for the top 2 percent to 3 percent of earners — those with incomes above $200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for joint filers.

    The new balance of power means that Democrats who once would have acquiesced reluctantly to GOP demands for stiff benefit cuts are now balking at ideas such as chained CPI or an increase in the Medicare retirement age, as well as demanding GOP concessions to higher taxes.

    "The price for that kind of thing has gone up," said a senior House Democrat who required anonymity to speak frankly on party strategy. "Negotiations depend on the situation. No one should expect to get the same kind of deal."

    Republicans have gotten the message, but insist that higher tax revenues be paired with cuts to rapidly growing programs such as Medicare and the Medicaid health care program for the poor and disabled. These programs are called "entitlements" because eligibility is based on meeting criteria such as age or income.

    "Washington's problem isn't that it taxes too little, but that it spends too much," said Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky. "But in a good-faith effort to make progress on boosting the economy and government's long-term solvency, Republicans like me have said for more than a year now that we're open to new revenue in exchange for meaningful reforms to the entitlement programs that are the primary drivers of our debt."

    New Hampshire Sen. Kelly Ayotte said in the GOP's weekly radio address Saturday that "any effort to address our fiscal crisis without including entitlement reform can't be taken seriously."

    No way, say many liberals.

    "We're going to send a loud message to the leadership in the House, in the Senate, and President Obama: 'Do not cut Social Security, do not cut Medicare, do not cut Medicaid,'" said Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, a self-declared socialist who aligns with Democrats. "Every now and then elections have consequences. We won."

    Republicans and even some Obama allies worry that liberal demands will make it harder for the president to seal a bargain with the GOP.

    Rep. Mike Quigley, D-Ill., said Obama has the same problem with his party's liberal base that Boehner has with some conservative Republicans. "Boehner has a disproportionate group of his folks skewing things too far out and the president has equally the same sort of problems with people who are horribly unreasonable," Quigley said.
     
  2. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member

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    I have no idea. The answer to that question will be a major tell in terms of how Obama intends to govern over the next four years.
     
  3. Big MAK

    Big MAK Member

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    I don't see anything happening, but I'm very pessimistic about governmental cooperation. Both sides need to give a little to get a little. Spending needs to be cut, but not just from social programs. Taxes need to rise, but not to a point where it will hurt the economy. Little adjustments need to be made. Compromise and cut the deficit.
     
  4. BetterThanEver

    BetterThanEver Contributing Member

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    I hope the House can push for an EITC reform. People are paying a negative tax rate, by receiving money back from the government. It should be capped to $0 tax liability.
     
  5. Major

    Major Member

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    I'm not sure what will happen, but I do think on the spending side, the inflation adjustment needs to be implemented. It would fix a lot of problems, have little to no short term negative impact, and is actually a logical change.
     
  6. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Contributing Member

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    I agree with this.
     
  7. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    How about another option: the "fiscal cliff" is another conservative spin that has been very effective. It is not an emergency. It is an invented crisis. If nothing is done we return to a very effective tax rate that has proven to be a good thing for the economy.

    Reduced military expenditure is a good thing, though like any form of government spending it is stimulative. The country needs to start weening itself off this b*stard form of military Keynesianism.

    The plans to reduce the horrors of the mythical 'fiscal cliff" argue for the extreme crisi OMG the "fiscal cliff" because reduced spending is bad in a recession--something conservatives and libertarians have fought tooth and nail for every since the downturn in 2008. So all of a sudden reduced government spending is bad. go figure.

    The whole "fiscal deficit" canard is just another attempt to cheat people out of social security and medicare which THEY ARE ENTITLED TO BECAUSE THEY HAVE HAD IT TAKEN OUT OF THEIR CHECKS FOR YEARS. In another words they are owed it.
     
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  8. jocar

    jocar Member

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  9. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    The fiscal cliff is economists fears of our slow growing economy increasing taxes and instituting massive budget cuts, resulting in another recession.

    Not Republican made.
     
  10. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Those people do pay employment taxes...
     
  11. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    So it sounds like Republicans will allow the tax cuts for everyone to expire and probably give us a recession so they can say they're not raising taxes and then they'll come back and agree to tax cuts again. That's what happens when you sign ridiculous pledges, you govern like a fool.
     
  12. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Sounds like a scare tactic

    Rocket River
     
  13. Classic

    Classic Member

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    It's all i've seen on the TV at the gym for like the last couple weeks on Fox News. Based on the non stop coverage on Fox, I agree.
     
  14. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    tax hikes now, promises of spending cuts in out years that will never materialize (but will be scored as deficit reducing by the CBO so Congress can congratulate themselves)

    the result will be another year of $trillion+ deficits and a tanking economy
     
  15. Major

    Major Member

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    Well, it's sort of Republican-made, in the sense that he sequester process was created specifically because the House GOP crazies wouldn't raise the debt ceiling otherwise. Certainly both parties share equal responsibility on the tax part.
     
  16. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Yes, but calling it spin is hardly accurate.

    If there is Republican spin, it is that the Democrats aren't willing to compromise, when in reality, the President's plan is a compromise, IMO.
     
  17. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    It could just as easily be said the Democrats will allow the tax cuts for everyone to expire. What's stopping them from extending all tax rates as they are?

    GOP should give Obama whatever he wants, anything less will allow them to be blamed for the recession that's coming.
     
  18. Major

    Major Member

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    Except the two sides agree on the tax rates for the 98%. They disagree on the 2%. The GOP is the only one refusing to pass the part that everyone agrees on.

    Besides which, they just fought an election on this very issue just a couple of weeks ago, and the GOP lost - in the House, the Senate, and the Presidency.
     
  19. bucket

    bucket Member

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    I don't think lower tax rates for the 98% are part of the GOP agenda, though. They'll accept low rates for the working class only if they also get tax cuts for the wealthy.

    Remember the fight over payroll taxes a year ago? Republicans were insisting that payroll tax cuts be allowed to expire unless they were tied to spending cuts. By contrast, they were calling for extended tax cuts for the wealthy even absent any agreement on spending cuts.
     
  20. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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