Yet it's the Native Americans who want the use of Native American mascots stopped who keep up this notion of using whites as mascots (through things like the Fightin' Whities - which I think is funny, but which makes the opposite point that these people want to make and also by claiming the untrue idea that there aren't currently any whites used as mascots). The comparison wouldn't necessarily be made if these people wouldn't keep asking for the comparison to be made. If they want people on their side, they should quit claiming something that isn't true (that there aren't any white mascots) and explain to us exactly why these Native American mascots are offensive to them in reasonable terms that we can all understand. By coming up with a white mascot (and ignoring all the white mascots already), they simply make it harder for people like me to understand where they are coming from. They show me the Fightin' Whities, and I think "So what? I don't care that they have a white guy mascot. Doesn't make my life any better or worse" and then that leads to "What's the big deal about having your race depicted as mascots. It doesn't bother me when you do it, why should it bother you when we do it?" And then their whole point is defeated. They've managed to get white people to "think about what it's like to be a mascot (even though we've been used as mascots for a long, long time)", and I suspect that the vast majority of people who have thought about realize they don't care if white people are used as mascots. Not exactly coming up with the result that this group was trying to get. The thing is that white people usually don't get their identity from the fact that they are white. Because we've been the majority for so long and the power for so long, we don't tend to use the fac thtat we are white as a large part of our identity. Minorities are more likely to see their race as a much larger part of their identity (oftentimes borne out of discrimination of the past and present). When I see the Fightin' Whities logo (or Rowdy at the Cowboys games or any number of other white mascots), I'm not thinking about how that mascot represents me in some way. It doesn't even enter my mind. Sure, the mascot may be a white guy, but every white guy doesn't represent me because I don't think about how I am part of a larger white race. That fact doesn't even enter my mind. But if I were a Native American (and despite the fact that my maternal grandfather was Lakota Sioux, I am for all intents and purposes a white guy), perhaps I would think about how Chief Wahoo represents me. Maybe I think that those mascots are how the whote power structure sees me personally. And maybe I would choose to fight against that image because it is so much not who I am. If that makes any sense. Maybe if I thought that the Fightin' Whities guy was representing me personally it would offend me. But to me, it's just some other guy, and it has nothing to do with me. I'm just spitballing here, though. I could be wrong.
Dude, chill! You act like I took all of your Bang Tango albums, or something. Put on some acidwash jeans, your favorite headband and listen to a little Winger, or Stryper and let all of this bitterness go. Every rose has its thorn, man. If CC DeVille and Bret Michels stopped fighting, can't we?
Elvis Costello: I am saying this as someone who agrees with a lot of what you say... Cool it! There is a fine line between defending yourself and being an ******* and you crossed it a while back. If you aren't able to refrain from being a mocking, name-calling jerk off, I'll kick you myself. This has nothing to do with beliefs or ideals. It has to do with common courtesy and your lack of use in that regard. So, chill.
EC -- funny stuff, cheers. I don't take anything personally here. Just showing some love for The Cat. Meow.
Jeff, you should go ahead and kick me off if you think my tone is worse than anyone else here. My original post in this thread did not address any person in particular. I did not state my position on this isue any stronger than anyone else did. Until BrianKagy had one of his ongoing hissy fits about me (which had nothing to do with the substance of what I wrote in this thread, by the way), I had no idea what his particular position was. I merely responded in kind to him, and TheFreak once they jumped on me. Sarcasm for sarcasm. Is it really that big a deal, Jeff? Brian and The Freak can't be *that* upset about anything I would say to them, right? Now, when people in other threads are variously calling each other traitors, cowards, bedwetters and racists and otherwise being "jerk offs" where is your guidence and vigilance there, Jeff? Is list tone only relevant when it applies to an administrator, or offends your personal code of ettiquette? Who is the "sensitive screwball" (thanks for the lingo DaDakota) here? I think you are trying to be a person of good faith here, so I don't blame you for wanting to keep a certain decorum on the BBS. Still, taking the piss out of each other makes these usually meaningless spats more fun. Would you like the NBA if everyone was like Avery Johnson?
Elvis: You have done this more than once. This isn't a first. Consider it a cumulative effect. There are people here whose sarcasm annoys me and others who I find funny. I tend to find yours funny mainly because I often agree with it, but you are stretching the limits of civility this board allows. Then, after I say you should chill, you tell me why you shouldn't? It gets annoying to see you argue in a way that is generally mean-spirited and less than courteous and I don't want you to think that you getting booted would be a part of some massive conservative conspiracy to silence the truth. It isn't in what you say. It is in how you say it. I've said the same thing to others before and I'm sure it will get said again.
That's your comeback? "I know you are, but what am I?" If you find my remark so offensive, I'm surprised you would respond "in kind". Grow up.
Brian, I was actually going for more of an "I'm rubber, your glue" argument, but thanks for playing Now what were your feelings on the issue of indians being used as mascots again?
Elvis: thanks for your last response. I would say that I'm generally neutral on the issue. I think "Redskins" should go, but "Braves" or "Seminoles" can stay; the former is an actual slur, whereas the latter two examples are more tributes than anything else. I don't think naming a sports team after an American Indian tribe endorses the actions of the pioneers or any such thing, so some of the overtly political connections people make between Indian team names and history are irrelevant. Most importantly, I think, are the numbers related to my initial question. According to SI's survey, most American Indians are not offended by teams named after American Indian tribes. This is simplification (the slight majority of Indians on the reservation were offended; the majority of those off the reservation were not) but it's generally true. In essence, this is a non-issue with the noted exception of the Redskins. In more general terms, I would just like to add that I do not think my initial response to your post was the best way to make my point. I'll leave it (and my most recent post) up so as to avoid revisionism. This next portion is something I had planned to post last night but kept delaying. It's not related to your last post at all. In case anyone is interested, let me offer some BBS advice. I am sure that some will call this hypocrisy coming from me. I prefer to think of it as advice from someone who has learned (and is still learning) his lessons as a poster here. This is not intended for any one person although obviously I would not be posting it had this thread not taken the rather silly direction it's gone. 1) The people on this BBS, for the most part, are not stupid. You are probably not the smartest person on the BBS, unless you are haven or Will. The fact that other posters can't understand or don't agree with your argument does not constitute proof that you are smarter, or that they lack your intellectual might. I have had problems with this in the past-- characterizing people's positions as "sheer, unadulterated ignorance", as one example-- and still struggle with it. I can say, though, that outside of posting pro-Karl Malone messages, very few things will turn people against you faster than calling them stupid. I'm not the only one who thinks so. 2) No one has the time to ensure that BBS decorum is uniformly enforced. I am amazed that this has to be repeated so often, but again, administrating the BBS is an unpaid service provided by the five of us. We cannot monitor the BBS 24x7. Sometimes, we miss things. We are well aware of the shortcomings of our method of policing the BBS, but there literally is no acceptable alternative. Things are just the way things are, and if anyone feels they can't post here unless the rules are always fairly applied across the board, we will all miss that person when they're gone. There has never been a single violation of TOS that hasn't been promptly dealt with when the admins have been promptly notified. Complaining after the fact that we didn't ban a poster or delete a thread does nothing to make the situation better. If someone's out of line and it bothers you, drop us a line and let us know. Don't make a mental note of it and then try to play it as a trump card when you get called out for behaving like a jerk. 3) Just because a rule has been broken in the past and gone unpunished does not mean you're justified in breaking it too. It's like arguing a speeding ticket by saying "Other people were speeding too!" This goes along nicely with point #2. No matter the situation, there is no precedent that allows users to violate the TOS. Pointing out administrator inconsistencies does nothing to absolve you of the responsibilities of posting here. If we miss it once, that doesn't mean we'll let it slide a second time. That being said, if you see a post/poster who's out of line, we want to hear about it. 4) Do not make it personal. I can't emphasize this enough, probably because I have a hard time with it myself (this thread being evidence of it). Elvis was way out of line with most of his initial response to me. I do not have the "thin skin" he apparently thinks I have, but I still didn't appreciate the attempt to insult me in as personal a manner as possible. Name-calling is inappropriate unless directed at the Jazz. BTW, Elvis, if it matters to you, I graduate following the summer session and will start grad school (business) next year. You may want to update your note cards. 5) Never, ever, ever take an entitlement attitude towards the site, the BBS, or your posting privileges (this could apply to admin privileges too, to be fair). We're here because Clutch decides each month to open his wallet and pay the server fees to host the site. We're not entitled to a damned thing. 6) If you have an ongoing issue with a poster or an admin, try to contact them directly. Most of us here on the BBS are reasonable people who sometimes get carried away arguing issues about which we have strong opinions. That doesn't mean we can't remain civil. It obviously gets easier the better you know people, but really this should be applied to our treatment of newbies too. If you want to argue with an admin about how the board's run, shoot them an email. Don't b**** at them in public. That gets old quick. 7) The things that tend to bother you most about the BBS are the things that remind you of personal character traits you dislike. I probably would not have posted my response to Elvis if a portion of his post hadn't reminded me of what a dick I can be. I wish I did a better job of keeping these things in mind at all times. It's pretty difficult; I mean, I would say these guidelines are all to some degree contrary to basic human nature. I know one thing: I hate the idea of making "enemies" on the BBS. I absolutely hate the feeling of hitting the BBS knowing there's a nasty argument waiting for me.
Brian, you are right. Life is too short to waste time being mean to strangers. (That is what your friends and loved ones are for!) I think I got off on the wrong start with you when I interpreted you being snotty to my wife- I tend to want to invoke Egyptian curses and scenes from "Goodfellas" when that happens. A more civil board, like life, in general, is always preferable. I apologize to you and anyone I may have upset on the BBS.
I feel the same way, Elvis. I apologize for being antagonistic and making it personal. No hard feelings.
I LOVE YOU MAN!!!!! Seriously, BK, that was an outstanding listing of how the BBS works. It's almost like you know what you are talking about or something.
