Couldn't tell you. However, it is still important for those who carry the banner of the Party to acknowledge the sins of their predecessors if they want to move forward. We expect such things in other areas, there's no reason not to expect the same in this case.
Just as we'd expect a party to recognize how hypocritical they've been in whining about it for years, then doing the same thing.
I'm sure they do realize it but justify it by saying that it's just politics. It's just the way things work. It's not right, but their whining didn't disenfranchise anyone. There's no one for them to apologize to for their actions in the past in regards to this issue because their whining didn't hurt anyone. They shouldn't be doing this now, but the Democrats shouldn't be suddenly interested in fairness without at least acknowledging their own sordid past on this issue.
But, from 1865-1960, as Oski pointed out, those "sins" were committed by old southern democrats, who generally all switched to being southern republicans during the Civil Rights era, so who has to atone? Them? or the party that they deserted?
Well, my problem is with stuff that happened since 1960 (the air base closing, the split of the vote in the Panhandle which I don't believe happened until the 1960s, etc, since it wasn't until the Civil Rights era that the conservative Panhandle starting voting consistently Republican), so I'd still say the current Democrats. And even though the players changed for various reasons (either through dying, not getting re-elected, or defecting to another party), they were doing what they did under the banner of the party. They would be apologizing on behalf of their predecessors in the party regardless of what became of them.
#1 is right...but in Republican circles, #2 is the main justification. The job of drawing districts is left to the legislature....the fact the courts have to rewrite it means something went wrong...so it would seemingly be the job of the legislature to get it done, since that's who the job is ultimately delegated to.
OK, so it doesn't matter whether you were in high school back then, as most of today's democratic party leaders were, or that conservative democrats (today's republicans) gerrymandered themselves into office for about a hundred years before 1960, but it's on the current democrats to pay the price today by association, and today's republicans are entitled to retribution? I'm sorry but that smacks of sour grapes rather than a just, fair, permissible, productive, or desirable outcome.
Okay. I give. I will admit now that dilluting the vote of an area is only wrong when it is done by Republicans. When it was done all those times before, it was perfectly okay. And the Democrats are right to say the Republicans are being unfair by injecting politics into redistricting. It is only right to inject politics into redistricting when Democrats are in control and trying to limit the Republican vote. I was trying to point out that if it's wrong now, it was wrong then, too. But obviously no one is buying into that. The prevailing wisdom is that it's wrong now. Then? Not so much. And even if it was wrong, it was the Republicans fault then somehow, too. But we do honestly agree that it's wrong to take this up now and that a non-partisan commission would be a better way to handle redistricting when it is required to happen. I'm for fairness. I wanted it back then when being unfair was perfectly okay, and I want it now. I just wanted there to be some acknowledgement that it was unfair then. But now I know better. It wasn't unfair then (or it was the fault of Republicans). It's only unfair now. I'm glad I have this board to set me straight.
mrpaige, I'm not going to re-read the whole thread, but can you explain to me how the base closing in Amarillo has anything to do with this?
Does everybody have a reading problem. WHERE DID I SAY RETRIBUTION WAS JUSTIFIED??????? I DIDN'T SAY IT. I SAID THE REPUBLICANS WERE WRONG TO DO THIS NOW. ALL I SAID WAS I THINK THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD ACKNOWLEGDE THEIR OWN HISTORY IN THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR IN THESE SITUATIONS AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO HEAR THEM SAY THEY REGRET THEIR ROLE IN SUCH ACTIONS. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. Why is that part so hard for people to read? They were in High School in 1991 when this sort of thing was still going on even though they could have very easily corrected it by just being as fair as they want the Republicans to be now? I didn't realize how young the Democrats in the Legislature are.
Just an example of the dirty political history of the Texas Democrats when it comes to voting and voting rights. The Amarillo Air Base was closed in retribution for Amarillo not voting for LBJ in 1964. It was part of the effort to note that those who so fervently are calling for fairness now didn't care about fairness in the past when they punished Amarillo for voting a certain way and split the Republican vote (and had the northern Panhandle district stretch to the Metroplex) to ensure no Republican could be elected to that district. I just wanted acknowledgement from those so po'ed that the past is ripe with this kind of reprehensible behavior, and that it's hard to be sympathetic to those who only want fairness now but didn't want it all those years the same thing was happening to us. But that's neither here nor there now since I now know it's only when Republicans do it that it's unfair.
Again, I doubt anyone who's whining now had anything to do with the closing of the base. Don't give me the well, they're still Democrats line, it was 39 years ago. I'm still waiting for Republicans to come out and say that they've been hypocrites for years.
Mr. Paige, you keep whining about they Amarillo base closing that happened well before I was born, so that's why your complaints seem a little dated. But really, what do you expect? A signed letter of apology to you and the citizens of Amarillo or whoever else? Jesus, if every politican or political party had to acknowledge when they were wrong to be partisan or petty about something.... But if we're apologizing for stuff, why not an apology from Tom Delay for trying to alert the FBI and the Feds and Homeland Security about the Oklahoma silliness? Why not an apology from the Republicans for breaking tradition and doing re-districting in between censuses? Why not an apology from Republicans for nationally opposing statistical sampling, a better, more accurate way of doing censuses, because it hurts them politically? Apologia is a two way street. ALthough each side, IMO is essentially meaningless.
Didn't need ESP, just read between the lines of your posts. Besides, I said that both sides are acting like children.
When they end up on the other end of the argument and oppose what they've done for decades (including as late as 1991 when they were still in control of both houses of the Legislature), acknowledging that they were once on the wrong side of the issue would be a good idea. Otherwise, it is just politics. If they don't think they were wrong when they did these things, how can they justify saying it's wrong for others to do it. You want Republicans to apologize for what you think they're doing wrong. I want Democrats to apologize (or at least acknowledge) for doing what they now say is wrong. If a burglar's house is robbed, it's hard to feel sorry for him when he complains about home robbery. If being robbed helps him to see that robbery is wrong, and he acknowledges that and changes his behavior, then maybe the sympathy can start. That was my whole point. It's hard to feel sorry for those who only see this as unfair but don't see the history as unfair. And I think this standard should be held for every hypocritical situation. This just happens to be the one we're talking about. As for the acknowledgement itself, it could very well be something along the lines of "It is wrong to gerrymander for political gain. It's wrong now, and I now realize it was wrong when our party engaged in these practices for years." And if they want to add that it is because of being on the other side that they now see the problems inherent in such behavior, that's fine, too. And ideally, I'd like them to devote themselves to forming a non-partisan commission to handle redistricting so we don't have such situations in the future no matter who is in charge. I wish that the Republicans would've been the bigger people, but they obviously aren't going to be. They don't have anything in the past on this issue in this state to apologize for, but being on the other side should've shown them that the behavior is wrong, and they should've been leading the charge for a non-partisan commission for all those years we were told that that's just the way things are and we should just deal with it. But they weren't and they aren't now. And they're wrong. However, if the Democrats are going to just pretend that the Democratic Party doesn't have a history of this sort of thing and be outraged at Republican behavior without acknowledging that their party was very recently the offenders, then I say they get what they get. I would be sympathetic if they acknowledged the Party's past when they complain about the current situation. If it is wrong now, it was wrong then. Perhaps if more politicians would acknowledge their mistakes when they change their minds (or at least note that they changed their minds), perhaps we could get more good things done and do away with the kind of crap that's going on right now. But when I call for that, all I get is back to "You just have to deal with the past. That was politics. But this, we don't have to just deal with this. This is wrong."
Just to clarify, I don't want anybody to apologize for anything. As I said, it's meaningless. I'd rather they just stop on a going forward basis and set up an independnt commmission
