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The Facts and Fictions of Tea Partying

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by thumbs, Sep 19, 2009.

  1. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Do a search. How many times must I say I am a proponent of health care reform? I want a cost effective, comprehensive plan -- not just "a" plan. I don't believe you have read the Baucus bill yet nor even the House passed bill. Both have language that frightens most normal tax paying individuals.

    As for weapons, I don't approve of anybody bringing any kind of weapon to any kind of meeting. Again, if you research my posts, you will find that I am opposed to the sale or possession of any type of handgun and/or automatic weapon. This includes collectors (sorry Roxran).
     
  2. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Time out. The Longhorns game starts soon.
     
  3. BetterThanI

    BetterThanI Contributing Member

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    I'm less concerned with "truth". You can argue "truth" all day. Let's talk FACTS:

    FACT - The teabag movement has been making headlines, not for their salient points or well thought out arguments, but for comparing Obama to Hitler, and carrying, displaying, and distributing inflammatory, derisive and even racist material.

    FACT - You blamed the perception of the teabag movement on the "distortions from highly partisan sources", then proceed to list only left-wing sources. Of course, you failed to mention the MOST partisan source of "news" on planet Earth: Fox. Fair and balanced?

    FACT - You brought up health care in Panama (a third-world nation with a GDP and national wealth a fraction the size of the U.S.) to scare people with stories of health care rationing in an attempt to bolster your support of the teabag movement.

    You've posted that "nothing good comes from a constant outpouring of vitriol", and yet you've aligned yourself with and started a thread defending the biggest source of vitriol in the country right now. Rather disingenuous, I'd say. And of course, when someone points this out to you, your comeback is to dismiss them.

    To use one of your favorite phrases: I have little patience with that type of poster.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I have read parts of all the bills. I haven't read any of the bill in their entirety. I have read commentary about what the bills do and don't say. The Baucus bill is frightening, and basically will make matters worse.

    I understand that you are in favor of health care reform of some sort. But it seems like the arguments people have against any of the bills up now isn't always based in fact.
     
  5. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member

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    Talk about projection.

    Your entire group is about no-facts bomb-throwing.
     
  6. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    I'm going to address the easy questions first and then the larger issue, which actually has had and should have exclusive threads.

    First, Joe Wilson. Wilson violated Congressional protocol. He should have apologized and he did twice. The President accepted his apology. That should have been the end of that story. As far as his history, I no nothing about him so I can neither pillory nor praise him outside of that incident.

    The Boston Tea Party was the mother of all protests as far as American history is concerned. For better or worse, people tend to ally themselves (wrapping themselves in the flag) to popular events or causes. Opponents do the same to stigmatize their opposition (how many "gates" over the years have there been?).

    The Guatemalan unrest of which you speak was somewhat analogous because, rather than tax issues, they were protesting the oppression of a private company that dominated the country, politically and economically. The Tea Parties are more pre-emptive in nature -- hollering before the hurt.

    Wow, that's going to bring a huge response, so let me explain the validity of doing so. Once an onerous law or tax is passed, it is very difficult to discard the yoke imposed. A second mission of the tea parties, which developed after the original protests, is to put brakes onto a government freight train headed headlong to the left. It's the fire fueled by Glenn Beck.

    Now, let's explore why I, an Hispanic, am opposed to extending health care illegal immigrants. It's because I hold great sympathy for these people.

    Our national shame centers around illegal immigrants. Democrats use the lure of free health care and better education to "buy" the votes of a growing segment of the population. Republicans give lip service to the flood tide of illegals, but secretly covet the cheap laborers they can abuse -- very much like the United Fruit Company (and predecessors) did in the "Banana Republics" like Guatemala.

    Not only do the illegals work for less in substandard working conditions -- they are "contract" workers so they are not covered by the company provides to other employees. Illegals are truly the new serfs, and it is high time to end this practice.

    Rather than extending "magnets" to draw even more people in from Mexico and Central America, we need to punish businesses who employ illegals with $10,000 per person fines. Remember, the immigrants are illegal and the businesses employing them are commiting illegal acts.

    At age 9 my father became the principal breadwinner for his mother and three younger brothers when his father died. The only work he could get as a child was the grunt labor in small businesses or shops. Not only did he feel unfairly treated for the work he did, but he had to practically beg for his pay. It left him embittered against business people for the remainder of his 88 years.

    Soon he learned to gamble and live by his wits. He discovered that learning and speaking English was an enormous advantage. Thus began his gambling career (anecdote alert: I had no clue about his past until I was 24. I was trying to teach him how to play cards -- and how not to get cheated -- amid the giggling of my mom and aunt. When I asked what was so funny, my mom said "Tell him." I looked at my 60-year-old father and he was shuffling a deck of cards with one hand. Up to that point, I had never seen him drink, smoke, gamble, swear or do unseemly things.)

    I give you this glimpse into my father's background because he was a major influence in my life. He spanked my older sister and I if we picked up a word of Spanish here or there, insisting that English was the American language and no other should be allowed.

    Many of the illegals who come to America can't speak English and therefore can't be assimilated as easily. Instead, there are a growing number of communiites speak Spanish only -- a third world nation unto themselves. It's not good for the nation as a whole. If Congress comes up with a plan to make them citizens with all the protections of the nation, I'm fine with that. However, where does this end? Where do we draw the line and say "no mas?"
     
  7. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    so if someone breaks a law/rule as long as they apologize twice they don't have to be punished as to what the law/rule specifies?

    fixed. You can easily find things about poeple's history if you wanted to. But I guess interupting the POTUS during his speech and unjustly calling hime a liar is no biggie for you.
     
  8. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member

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    No wonder you voted for the worst president in our history (twice)...

    You both believe in pre-emptive attacks against imaginary enemies.
     
  9. bmb4516

    bmb4516 Member

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    No, if the break a rule they should be punished in accordance to the current rules, a new rule shouldn't be made up because people felt like the apologies weren't enough.
     
  10. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    where's the new rule?
     
  11. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    Let's educate. Joe Wilson once worked as an aid for segregationist and racist, Strom Thurmond. In 2000, as a South Carolina state Senator he championed the cause of the flying of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and was one of only seven members of the Senate to vote against removing the flag from the state house. In 2003 when Strom Thurmond's bi-racial daughter finally revealed to the public that she was Thurmond's daughter and Thurmond's family acknowlegded this fact, Wilson still ripped her for trying to smear Strom Thurmond's legacy. Wilson is a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans which is apparently an extremist group that favors secession. This year he became the first Congressman to interrupt a speech from the President to Congress and whoops, big surprise that speaker was a black guy.

    The guy is exactly who we think he is.
     
  12. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    It was a violation of protocol and tradition, not law.
     
  13. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    We're in the same boat. I haven't read all of the separate bills either, just synopses from attorneys and commentary. However, the bills are so long and complex, "facts" are difficult to distinguish from "fiction" or "wishful thinking."
     
  14. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Then let the people of his South Carolina district punish him by not voting for him. Considering only your information and nothing else, I wouldn't vote for him. However, I am not in his district. BTW, Robert Byrd, D-VA, is a former grand wizard or something with the KKK. People can change. Right?
     
  15. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    I believe its part of Republican House Rules
     
  16. BucMan55

    BucMan55 Contributing Member

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    There couldn't be the possibility that the crazed looney tea partiers that are making headlines(the ones with the signs, or the guns) are joining in with the initial bunch that had the idea of what Thumbs is speaking of and are not what they represent?? Could Glenn Beck be urging them on because it gets him headlines and more ratings?? I think the reason the folks at the forefront of the GOP right now havent alienated themselves are searching and dont want to offend anyone who might be on their side(even if they are a lot further down the line than them).

    Personally I think they are pretty much crazed loonies but guess I have more of an optomistic view of society.

    "Don't feed the troll and he will go back under the bridge." Something like even acknowledging it gives it more play than ignoring it.
     
  17. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Thanks for breaking down your arguments so they can be answered in a more manageable fashion. Incidentally, the truth is comprised of all the facts. When only some of the facts are addressed, one tends to arrive at conclusions that are half-truths. One of the first principles I learned as a journalist was that you can be factual all day long without being fair, but, even if your are fair (and balanced :) ) without all the facts, the story is worthless.

    1) There are no "controls" on those who attend tea parties. It is my experience that nuttiness sells (gets noticed by the press) but doesn't necessarily represent the majority of rational protesters. Batman would tell you that I am delusional, but I like to think of myself as reasonable and rational. Also, I can assure you that no such silliness comes under discussion in my group.

    2) I stand by my statements. Why would I name Fox News when they lend a sympathic ear to the tea party movement? We feel the distortions come from the left, not the right. In other words, the tea party ox is not gored by Fox News. You may feel they are too cozy, and that is also true.

    3) That special on health care in other countries was on CBS-News. They had similar horror stories from France, Germany, England and Canada and asked some serious questions at the end that we should be asking ourselves. When I get time after supper and before the Cowboys game, I will try to find that CBS special to see if it is youtubed or urled or whatever it is that one does to post it on the internet.

    Lastly, as to your allegation that I have "aligned yourself with and started a thread defending the biggest source of vitriol in the country right now." I have never alligned myself with the Daily Kos or Huffington Post or New York Times. However, if you are referring to Glenn Beck, I sometimes do agree with him -- and sometimes I don't. However, he is asking important, legitimate questions that other media have not. Sometimes these are questions that some people in the media and administration would rather not address.
     
  18. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member

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    Great, great, great post. Especially this part:

     
  19. thumbs

    thumbs Contributing Member

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    Those rules are not law. They are protocol borne out of tradition.
     
  20. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member

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    Wow. I am genuinely disappointed in you, thumbs.

    Through this whole teabagging thing, I've been thinking you were just misguided. Reading this, coupled with your continued assertion that Bush was a better choice than Gore or Kerry, convinces me beyond a doubt that you are not who I thought you were. You really are a previously well disguised radical who believes some really scary ****.

    I guess I should be grateful that you've begun ignoring me. I wish I could do the same, but when I see this dangerous kind of thinking I can't help but respond.

    It is, nevertheless, a tremendous disappointment. I used to think you were a halfway reasonable guy. I realize now I was sorely mistaken.
     

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