How well did Pippen do while he was in Houston. Oh fell down against a 20 year old Kobe Bryant. Greatness
Oh good, let's judge him when he's an injured old man. How many times did old man Jordan lead the Wizards to the playoffs in the Leastern conference, given 2 chances? You can lose the double-standards. One standard'll do juuuust fine.
Pippen also had the suspect head aches when he couldn't handle the defense of the Pistons before the Bulls finally broke through. Whatever you think about Pippen, he's no Shaq. Bottom line. You can also stop being an ass hole. Are you Pippen's secret lover.
Pippen was a cosumate 2nd tier player. He's IS one of the 50est greatest. He's no Shaq, She's no Jordan. But he's up there. Certainly to the level of Worthy or Drexler. And he was one of the best passing SF I've ever seen (over 6,000 career!). Only looking at Pippen's stats in Houston is overlooking his whole career. He lead the Bulls to a 55 win season in 1994 W/OUT Jordan! Sure, the Knicks were a better team because the Bulls were missing Jordan. But still. Pippen was one hell of a player.
Had you bothered to read my first post, you would've seen this: Never did I claim Pippen was Shaq's equal. In fact, I specifically said he wasn't. It's quite possible to be one of the best ever without being Shaq's equal. Oh, I'm an *******? Last time I checked, you're the one who antagonized me by calling my opinion a joke. I never said anything to you before that. Oh, and a nice little insult tacked on at the end! Tastefully inserted to again prove to everyone how right you are, no doubt...
Your whole argument hinges on the fact that you said Pippen is one of the greatest players ever. You keep refering to him like he is on the level of Shaq. That's my whole point, he isn't even close, and to argue that Lakers had no depth is also false. They had Ron Harper, one of the players you listed as helping Jordan one year and they had Glenn Rice another. They have no depth right now, and even playing with the most dominant force in the game, this team barely got to the Finals and they're about to lose in 5 games to a team with no one in the starting line-up who can crack the Western Conference starting five all-stars. Kobe has proved the last two seasons that he can't carry a team. I don't care if they are out there playing with the most dominant force in basketball still today, and supposedly a player on Jordan's level should not be in this position. Jordan lost out to some of the greatest the teams ever before he could get to the Finals. This Pistons team is going to be the first team to win a championship not having a fifty greatest player on their team since probably Seattle won the championship in the seventies. Jordan would have never lost to a team like this, and most certainly not while playing with a force like Shaq. This team shouldn't have gotten its last ring if it wasn't for the refs carrying them through Seattle. They haven't had to face a good team in the Finals until now and we see how that is working out for them.
But his argument is that Pippen is one of the greatest players ever. That's as high as a level you can get. There is no other level but the greatest player ever.
ONE of the greatest ever. ONE. Not "THE greatest." That's why he's a member of the "50est greatest". Come on guys! He didn't say, THE GREATEST. We know that's either Jordan or Wilt (at least in terms of individual dominance). Pippen, Worthy, and Drexler are in this book. Not just Shaq, Jordan and Wilt. http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000V67RE.01-AT26F6GZJEB06._AA231_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
I never said they had no depth, I said they didn't have the Bulls' depth. So? Shaq is nowhere near what he once was, and at least everyone on the Pistons is a legit player. Jordan's last 2 championships came from beating a team that had Ostertag and Russell starting, which was only there becasue that was probably the most watered-down period in NBA history. And there's no way you can know what Kobe would've become had he not been forced to play in a post-centered offense. Notice I never said Kobe was Jordan's equal! All I said was that Jordan would've struggled to find a satisfactory role in a Shaq-centered offense (satisfactory for Jordan, that is), just like Kobe. As it is, Jordan was probably the better player. Had their situations been reversed, Kobe may have been just as good an individual player, that's all I'm saying. Shaq is not such a force anymore, at least not consistently. And as you've said yourself, this year's Lakers have NO depth whatsoever, so it's not impossible that the Pistons could still pull it out. Though, as I said above, given the situations that they were both in, if you inserted Jordan straight from the Bulls onto the Lakers it is also quite possible that you're right, and Jordan may have won with these Lakers. But that's completely besides my point, which was that had Jordan been stuck behind Shaq his whole career, he may not have been as good. Seattle...? What year are you talking about, and what team? Notice how Kobe, at this point in his career, is a better 3-point shooter than Jordan. That may be a result of him playing with Shaq, just as Jordan's superior one-on-one ability may be the result of him NOT playing with Shaq. And, just to confirm one more time, since you seem to be missing it, I never said Pippen was even close to Shaq. I said he was one of the greatest ever (my definition of greatest ever being top 50 or so), that is all.
the early years for jordan he had to go through the celtic teams and detroit teams which were just in a whole different class. You take either of those teams and put them in the league today, and I will guarantee you that they would be in the finals. Thats how talented they were. Jordan had no real other teammate to share his load in his early days. As good as the bulls depth was on the 90s teams did any of the other players was there anyone else on that team, including pippin that made the other teams coach go, 'man we need to double team him and get the ball out of his hands asap?' no there wasnt, jordan was the only one on that team that commanded a double/triple teams. while kobe for the most of his career has lived off the single or virtually no coverage or late rotating defenders because of shaq i think the only way you can compare the progress of kobe to jordan is next season when most likely he will leave to another team to be the man.
I agree with you Kobe can't win a championship by himself. But I have two interesting questions: 1. Give Kobe the squad Jordan had in 1997-1998, with Pippen, Rodman, Ron Harper, Longley, Kerr and Kukoc,etc. Can he win a championship? 2. After this season, if you were Lakers GM, do you keep Kobe or let him go? Cause Shaq is old, yes, he still could dominate games occassionally like last Sunday, but he is obviously over his prime and probably will be dominated after 2 years. Do you give up Kobe and give Shaq 4+ yrs contract with 30M per year?
I know he's not putting Pippen on Shaq's level and that's where the argument falls apart. Pippen is a nice secondary player for a contender, a very good secondary player. Shaq went to the Finals without Kobe. Shaq is a primary player on a championship team, the type of player Jordan never played with.
Yes! You're the man! That was my point all along, you never know what Kobe might've been when not playing with Shaq! Thank you!
Not likely. There are also other teams in the league at the time that Kobe would have to gone through (like the Pistons , Celtics and Cavs). Having Jordan and Shaq made sure there wasn't any "equalizing" going on. Jordan and Shaq made sure the playing field was *not* level. Kobe needs a lot more depth and talent than Jordan. Lets say, Kobe, Rice (younger) and Malone (younger) would have been a potent team. Possible for a championship. Or, I even cringe writing this,....Kobe, Stockton and Malone! AAAahhh!
Kobe is not in the same class as jordan period. He is on the same level as Drexler Wilkens Dr J Gervin T-Mac Vince Carter None of these guys could win a championship without a MVP big man, where as Jordan can. That is what seperates Jordan from the rest. Stick any of those players with Shaq, and you would have a championship team. The only other guard in Jordan's league is Magic.
MJ was 28 before he won his first championship -- in his seventh season. He was a fantastic player, but it took him several years to "get it." When he did, though, it was over. From the ages of 28-34, he was the single most dominant player in the history of the NBA. And it's not even up for debate. Kobe's just not there yet. He still forces the action and misdirects his energy. Once he starts seeing the matrix though, he'll reach MJ heights. And he'll already have three titles on his resume.
Dear God man... I've already posted enough for today, and then you gotta come claiming Jordan was the most dominant ever, "and it's not even up for debate." I was really hoping no one would start this, but here goes: his name was Wilt. Don't wear it out. (Come on Green, you've been here awhile, you had to know I wouldn't let that one lie)
