Why didn't you state that there is no way that those who are pro-capital punishment are also pro-life? That's more of a contradiction than the way I believe. Because those who believe in capital punishment are against murder. Capital punishment, when enforced on the guilty, is not murder.
While a little cockeyed about it, I think Ty Webb makes a good point when saying... "Why do we live in a country where people care more about the criminals rights than the victims" Certainly, there does occur the wrongful imprisonment of men, but not very very often. Yet everytime there is a death penalty case in the public eye, every single time, it never comes back to this is what he did, lets take some more time to consolidate the victims family,etc,etc, but it always comes down to is it right to kill this person, what are his rights, and whatnot. as far as the person killing again, if the man is sentenced to death, then after he is executed, he can never escape and kill again. Sure, he or any other prisoner can escape and kill again at some point, but after the death penalty is executed, he can never escape again. Also, there is all this talk about prisoners rights and people wrongfully imprisoned. Poeple can be murdered while in prison also, another reason why the daeth penalty is useful. But in the end, I just htink it is a moral argument. If you take somebody elses life, you dont deserve to live anymore. It is as simple as that to me. I am a big fan of an eye for an eye, even though it cant work completely. ------------------ Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women!
DREAMer and TheFreak : Just wonder what are your opinions on pro-life supporters that support abortion in cases of rape or incest? ------------------ [This message has been edited by rblh (edited August 24, 2000).] [This message has been edited by rblh (edited August 24, 2000).]
well since you are the big dictionary definition lover (see marriage): mur·der 1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought 2. the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law 3. The unlawful killing of one human being by another, especially with premeditated malice. Where does it say anything about "the guilty"? Dick Cheney claims to be "Pro Life" yet he organized and ran the Gulf War where many Iraqi civillians lost their lives due to the air attacks. What were they "guilty" of?
"Dick Cheney claims to be "Pro Life" yet he organized and ran the Gulf War where many Iraqi civillians lost their lives due to the air attacks. What were they "guilty" of?" Are you serious? and do you know what unlawful means? ------------------ [This message has been edited by Ty_Webb (edited August 24, 2000).]
Exactly, murder is a matter of law. Explain to me how capital punishment is "unlawfully killing a person". Executing an innocent man would be a murder, however, that would be a problem with the way the punishment is enacted, not the punishment itself. What does this have to do with capital punishment?
how do you know this? we just had a man, Roy Criner, released from a life sentence for a murder and rape he did not commit. what if he had been given the death sentence instead of life? our justice system is not perfect.
I'm not arguing against capital punishment with you. I'm arguing against the hypocrisy of those who claim to be "pro-life" (since you keep calling pro-choice folks "pro-abortion").
I think it is essential to realize that murder and killing are two separate things. I do not consider executions murder, but I do consider them the killing of an idividual under the rule of law by another individual or group. I am anti-killing. For me, it makes no difference whether the killer is a murderer or an executioner. It is interesting to note that many feel like more Americans are concerned with the welfare of murderers over victims and their families. If America is indeed overwhelmingly in support of the dealth penalty, than really the case is just the opposite. In fact, I would submit that, based on the numbers of people proven to be innocent (many of which were convicted with incompetent legal counsel provided by the state) after being sentenced to death, there is a great need for advocacy on the behalf of convicted felons. How would any of you feel if a friend or family member was convicted of murder and sentenced to death even though you knew they were not guilty? mrpaige: I hate to tell you but you will never convince Ty on this one. He and I have already been round and round on this issue and despite his assertions that the death penalty is a deterrant and it is really a matter of practicality, he seems to have WAY too many stories about horrible acts of violence at his disposal and is VERY involved with this issue emotionally. You are a very smart guy and I would suggest you get out of this argument while you can. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited August 24, 2000).]
" Just stick with the deterrant as an argument and leave the stories out. " Well you anti's make it out as though we can jut give people LWOP and that effectively safeguards the outside world from these "people." The Stories I posted were to directly refute these assessments, that makes them as relevant as the opinions many of you have thrown around. "it makes no sense to call murderers "animals" or try to persuade people that people deserve to die for their crimes." But it makes sense to make people out who support the death penalty as bloodthirsty and vengeful. " you have access to way to many stories " not really, I read the www.prodeathpenalty.com site and messageboard, it is all posted there. I sat on the fence in regards of the death penalty until I became more educated on the issue. " you seem hell-bent on telling us all about them even when they don't really do anything for your argument other then to demonstrate how sad and pathetic life can be at times." Well you guys seem hell bent on thinking if you just ignore the problem it will go away, just lock up the criminals where they can't hurt anyone else, and we can still *feel* good about ourselves. Too bad it isn't that easy. ------------------
I'm not trying to convince Ty. I respect his opinion and I don't disagree completely with what he's said. Look at Massachusetts in the '70s and early '80s, they had what they called Life Without Parole, but the average person sentenced to that served 19 years. That is not life without parole. As for the idea that the standards for being on death row are that high, it's really not. A person can get the death penalty for a murder in the course of another crime, or multiple murder or killing a peace officer or a number of other things in that same vein. That doesn't mean that all these people are remoseless killers. Many of them are, but we can find examples of people who did a horrible thing and regret it deeply and who probably aren't a real danger to the community anymore. You'd never want to see them leave jail because of what they did, but it's probably not necessary to execute them, either. Was Karla Faye Tucker so much of a continued danger to society that she had to be executed to prevent any further problems? She did a horrible, horrible thing, but was it really necessary to kill her to protect the safety of the state? And there is the question of innocent people being accused and convicted of crimes. We point to the appeals system as being adequate safeguards against executing the wrong person, and perhaps it has worked perfectly thus far (we don't know. Once a person is executed, people stop looking for evidence of innocence.) But it is incredibly hard to get a conviction overturned once it has been rendered by a jury. Even new evidence is often not enough to get a new trial. And we've seen that the Court of Criminal Appeals doesn't always have all that much respect for new evidence, either (the Roy Criner case being a prime example. DNA evidence excluded him. Had that evidence been available at trial, the man would've walked, if he had even been brought to trial at all. But once you get into the appeals process, that evidence wasn't enough to get a new trial.) So, there are legitimate concerns that the system is too rigid. (It shouldn't take crusading Journalism students and a pardon from the Governor to get innocent people off death row. The appeals system should be able to weed out the innocent.) ------------------
Wow, that's a real independent source of information. ------------------ "I'll drop kick those f*ckin' dogs if they come anywhere near me." visit www.swirve.com
You're right. Anyone with an agenda cannot be expected to study an issue and produce an even-handed exploration of it. ------------------ Just because I spent five years trying to get a hold of a hammer, I don't have to spend the rest of my life driving nails. I hate this hammer and I hate driving nails.
Well you found someone who was wrongfully accussed. But I can find millions upon millions of people rightfully accussed over our countries history (I wasnt referring to just the death penalty). Second, that argument is still somewhat illogical. You cant really say I dont believe in something cause so far it doesnt work and we shouldnt do it. I was asking whether or not you morally believe in the death penalty. No, the death penalty is not a perfect thing and yes, sometimes, extremely innocent people are killed, most likely. Does that mean the DP is a bad idea. In my opinion, no. It means that our law system isnt perfect. If I was going to try and fix the problem I would start there. I'm not for the DP all the time, because, as you mentioned, I know there are problems. But whne there are really bloody, gruesome murders, and there is a large amount of evidence suggesting someone as the main culprit, then I am for it. ------------------ Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women!
i am not anti-death penalty either Jayz i agree if there is overwhelming evidence then they should be executed but I think Governor Bush should have followed the example of the Illinois governor who put a temporary moritorium on the DP until the system could be fixed. Instead he arrogantly says he is 100% confident each person he executes was guilty of their crime. So to answer to your question, no I am not morally opposed to it.
Maybe my trouble with the death penalty is that I don't understand its purpose. Those of you who are for this punishment, what do you understand the goal to be? Deterrance of others? Prevention of that individual from ever killing again? Revenge? Also, if anyone has any statistics to back up the notion that these first two goals are being met by the death penalty, please let me know. I would prefer that to anecdotal stories. ------------------
First off, I never equated anyone who disagrees with me as bloodthirsty. I don't think all supporters of the death penalty are vengeful but many of the arguments lead to that. As for *feeling* good, I believe in compassion. Period. The more compassion we have in this world, the better off we all are. Problems don't disappear with the death penalty. They exist even with it. I think of it like a parent who hits a child as punishment for hitting a sibling. It is confusing and contradictory. It re-inforces violent behavior. I know, Ty, that you will never believe this and I understand. It is obvious that you are very angry. Your harsh words and overtones reflect that. I respect your beliefs and opinions and would hope you would respect mine. I don't mind disagreeing with you at all. I have friends who don't agree with me on this one (some of them on this very board) so it is no big deal My point was that we should all be clear on why we approve of the death penalty or why we disapprove of it. If you believe people should die because they deserve it, fine. If you believe it is a deterrant, fine. If I believe it is inhumane, fine. It is up to us as individuals to decide for ourselves. I don't think any of us should have to apologize or defend our beliefs. But, be clear and say that you think people deserve it if that is what you mean. By the way, I do feel better knowing that people don't get the death penalty in some states. I pray for all of them - the victims and the offenders. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
That's not what I'm saying Kagy. It's just that this guy's getting all the same place. You'd question me if I was citing all these stories about innocent people being executed from a website called www.antideathpenalty.com wouldn't you? ------------------ "I'll drop kick those f*ckin' dogs if they come anywhere near me." visit www.swirve.com [This message has been edited by Rocketman95 (edited August 24, 2000).]
Ty_Webb, "Two INNOCENT people would be alive today if this animal would have been punished properly. LWOP does NOT work!" It's funny you say that. So, you'd rather accept that fact that some innocent people will get the death penalty, in order to save some other innocent people? See that's my whole problem. The government should not be deciding which innocent people live and die. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. DREAMer's Rocket Page
