The Dean Collapse Continues...

Try Valium and Visine, Trader_J. I think it might help your condition.

 

He was comparing you to a trained monkey and it's trainer, not an Afro-American slave, although the 'massah' phrasing was probably confusing, and as such not the best choice. While I agree that many in the Ostrich Brigade will have missed that, thus making the answer to your question "no", I thought the implication was obvious...

 

I wasn't aware you were black, TJ. You weren't the last time I met you, but then I didn't know you were a "Spanish speaker" then either. If you've become black since then, you have my apologies. If not, you don't. You continue to toil in meaningless fields for virtually no compensation from the rich whites who 'own' you. Of course, black slaves really had no choice. You do it willingly, so I guess the analogy was a bit off.

Way to change the subject again, by the way. That's about five times in the last two days that you've failed to argue the merits.

 

The Dean campaign had a setback, that's for dang sure. Though the Iowa caucus means essentially nothing, it could set a precedent.

But "also-ran"? Dean is still the front-runner. It's still his nomination to lose. I'm not saying Dean will win the nomination (or even the NH primary), but to count him out now because of a single setback is premature.

 

What's left to argue Batman? Are you arguing that you have not *abandoned* the Dean camp? Are you arguing that Dean's supporters have *not* turned their back on their former messiah? Are you arguing that YEEEEEEAAAAAARRRHHHH didn't end Dean's candidacy? Are you arguing that you are not a bandwagoner for jumping on Kerry or Edwards teams despite your fundamental disagreement with their assessment of the war in Iraq? Are you arguing that you were correct in thinking that Dean would be the next President? What's left to argue? Please tell me!

People may not paint you with the extremist brush if you wouldn't incorporate attacks on African Americans and homosexuals, as well as profanity and name-calling into your 'arguments'. Your civility leaves much to be desired.

 

"People"? You...texx...probably johnheath if he were around...treeman, I suppose...who else? Oh, right...bama...maybe a few others.


When you live on the equator, Paris probably looks a lot like the North Pole...

 

LMAO. Good one, but don't quit your day time job.

 

I have not "abandoned" Dean. I am leaning away from him like any person would who thought for himself (try it sometime - it's refreshing) but I maintain a hope he will bring me back. Contrary to your various contortions, blind loyalty to a politician is not worth much. Dean's speech didn't "end" his candidacy, nor was it the basic problem. It was a symptom of the larger issue -- a campaign that's lost touch with what made it strong in the first place. No, I am not a bandwagoner. Like the Iowa caucus goers (including the ones who went Dean and Gephardt) and like half of America I think the single most urgent crisis facing our nation is the continued presidency of Bush. I had fundamental differences with Dean too. I'm a liberal and he's not. We have deep differences on gun control, the death penalty and trade, but I've been for him because he's been making the most compelling case against the most dangerous president we've had since I've been alive (and probably for a long time before that). Now Kerry and Edwards are. That is virtually the only criteria for my support and whomever makes that argument best will get it. It is that important to this country I love. I never said Dean would be the next president. What's left to argue? Why not start with your ridiculous list of lies about Dean in that other thread? I schooled you, you ran away. After you address that, we can come back to your bogus accusations in this one.

I was no more insulting blacks or gays than Dean was insulting blacks with the Confederate flag flap. My comments were aimed at you. You act alternately like a crushy school girl and a puppet (the slave analogy was off, but I explained already why I used it even though it wasn't my best work). And then you try to slam me for not being the lemming for Dean that you've been for Bush and Sanchez. Thanks, but no thanks. I've seen you in action and I've little desire to emulate your brand of 'loyalty.'

 

Right on. The real news coming out of Iowa is not the fortunes or misfortunes of individual candidates... it's that Dems are in full agreement that the most important thing is not a program or a policy, but removing Bush from office. We may argue about how to best do that, but it's clear the larger question has been settled. I never thought I'd ever quote Gephardt, but when he said "We will win because we have to." he was also right on.

 

Not to address Dean, but your comment on "any other Democrat" is totally off-base. I remember Bush Senior having a wide, commanding lead in the polls for quite a long time and he didn't get re-elected. I wouldn't count my ducks before they quacked.

 

I think Banqui and I both said we were still supporters. True I did acknowledge that that would all change if Dean continues his month long trend of talking about all the wrong things and losing his focus and passion on the campaign trail.

I've said before that real issues don't matter. Dean can't keep going whacky and still win, but assuming that that episode can be fixed I believe that he has the best chance to beat Bush out of all the nominees.

The reason I believe that is that Dean will say something with passion and stick to his guns. Unlike most other candidates Dean will say, 'This is my possition on an issue, and I will stand and fight about that issue.' Someone needs to have strong beliefs express them clearly and stand by those even if it seems unpopular. Dean did that with Iraq and that's what got him his lead.

Bush has stuck with unpopular issues, but Bush is willing to stick by the sides he chooses, and seem tough about that. That characteristic is what holds on to his supporters and not his position on issues or his mental capacity. Dean's enthusiasm if he hasn't blown it, can bring a lot of new voters to the process. That's important because without something new, the election won't go the Dem's way. A new young 'internet' breed of voters which had previously been with Dean might be difference. He had a lot of new people involved before and that would only increase once he was selected as nominee. Of course if he continues to be a non-factor on the campaign march or get unnecessarily hyper during speeches then he could blow all of that. But until that happens beyond repair, I believe is the best hope of stopping Bush. The other candidates just aren't anything new, and keeping the same old tactic will get us the same old result, and that's another 4 years of Bush.

Kerry's position on the Iraq vote and things like that are different from the Kerry that was once my favorite national politician. The fact that he could seemingly appear mushy on a stance is more important in the general election than the actual stance. Gen. Clark has a record of being buddy buddy with Republicans, flip flopped early on his campaign, and that might make him seem soft on his stances. That may have been all due to inexperience, but it's a big gamble. Edwards voting record on Iraq and Patriot act hurt him, but he's run a positive, issue oriented campaign. I admire him for staying away from the mudslinging, but I don't think that will get him far in the general election.

I realize I'm in the minority about my beliefs on which candidates will fare best in a general election. I just feel that right now one of the main things being held against Dean in the general populace is that he's so far left, he has no touch with the mainstream. Anyone who looks at Dean's record and doesn't buy into the hype will see that's not true at all, and it should be fairly easy to dispell that once the primaries are over. Once that label is gone there isn't much the Republicans will have to try and pin on him. That's only true provided he doesn't shoot himself in the foot too many times between now and then.

 

Latest poll numbers from NH not good for Dean... looks like there is a good chance Clark will catch him for second place. I'm surprised Edwards is not moving up more. Debate tonight should firm things up even more.

ARG, Jan 19-21 (18-20), 301-02 likely, +/-6

Kerry 27 (24)
Dean 22 (26)
Clark 19 (18)
Edwards 9 (9)
Lieberman 7 (7)

 

Edwards needs to focus on the Southern states on the 3rd. Do a great job tonight, win South Carolina and take Arizona from Clark and things will really get interesting.

 

I don't venture into the D&D often, but the last time I was here was around the holidays and posters lead by the likes of the very outspoken Batman Jones were yelling at me for telling them that I thought Dean's tongue was going to get him into trouble. Like all extremists, Batman Jones was swearing up and down that Mr. Dean was the second coming and that he was going to lead us all to the promised land. It's amusing to read the contents of this thread today and see that even Dean's most loyal supporters are now at the very least questioning the credility of his campaign's chances.

 

Yep. You hit the nail on the head. These types are really a flightly bunch to say the least.

 

Shame about the search function. Of course that is not what you said nor is that what I said. The promised land for me is the defeat of Bush. As long as he's not replaced by Lieberman (which he won't be), I don't care too much who it is. I don't care about any particular candidate as much as I care about the crisis in our country. But, you know, I'm an extremist. Stick with mainstreamers like bigtexxx. He's not "flightly."

 

Yeah, just like all those McCain supporters who were railing against Bush in the 2000 primaires...

 

Does anyone feel sorry for Howard Dean? It must pain people to see this humiliated man stand before America and be forced to put on a happy face. You know that he is devastated inside. He has been shamed. I look at him and see the kid who busted out of his shell at the high school dance and finally mustered up the courage to hit the dance floor and shake it. Then all the other kids pounce on the opportunity to ridicule him for looking silly.

Poor Howard. Poor poor, upper class, elitist, angry, pompous Howard....

 

Take out the angry, and you've described Bush perfectly.